A question for the pro-life members of MN

[SemperIdem]

The biggest argument always boils down to “taking a life away, acting like God”.

So - how does IVF sit with you? Are you anti it, because it is “acting like God”. Are you for it because acting like God to create a life is somehow fine whereas taking one away is not?

Do you understand that many IVF pregnancies are high risk and may ultimately require medical management aka abortions?

I’m firmly pro science and think access to both abortions and IVF is a wonderful thing, for avoidance of doubt.

One never sees protests outside fertility clinics and I wondered why.

Im lapsed Catholic so probably the pro life message sunk in at an early age

Think abortion is generally morally wrong in most cases. Wouldn’t have an abortion or ivf either for the same reason.

But... I don’t have the right to play God. And by that, I don’t have the right to enforce my views on other women.

I think that in an ideal world no one would have an abortion. We don’t live in an ideal world. Regardless of whether I think abortion is morally wrong or not. Women who want to terminate a pregnancy will do: so let’s make sure they can do it safely and legally.

Of course living women matter more than dead ones...

That's nice of you to say. Let's all campaign for laws that actually reflect this. After all, you'll get a lot more dead women if you ban safe abortion, and no person who wants women to stay alive would want that.

This isn't true. There are a variety of reasons why different groups are pro-choice or anti-abortion.

'The will of God' argument applies to some religious groups but not others.

I am pro choice, but I believe life starts at conception.

And I suspect you wouldn’t want to prevent someone else accessing an abortion, you would just prefer they didn’t get one?

The argument is the same because of the end result @hangonsnoopy - less rights for women over their own bodies.

They often are outside IVF clinics, without realising it. When I was having IVF in Edinburgh they were protesting on the main road at the junction to the hospital which leads to all the women’s services.

It was horrible on a number of levels, most of which I’d struggle to articulate. Arseholes.

I got pregnant by my violent and abusive ex, my rapist, when I was 19. That baby was adopted shortly after birth and has a good life with a family who loves them.

The baby isn't responsible for the actions of the parents.

So when you're spouting such hate about how a group of people disgust you, don't be surprised or enraged to hear that many of us feel the same about those with your view and choices.

The 'pro choicers' on mumsnet are much more vitriolic and hateful than any of the pro lifers I have seen post. It's rare you see a pro lifer on mumsnet calling people vile and disgusting and if they did it would be removed immediately.

Intolerant and aggressive is what lots of you are. Not too dissimilar to the idiots who harass people outside of abortion clinics.

just following on from @Andthedebategoeson I do find in the UK, in general conversation and on mumsnet that pro choicers are a lot more nasty about difference of opinion than pro lifers.

Haven't RTFT but came on to say that when I had an abortion, over a decade ago, it was for what some would consider "social reasons" -

i.e. I was physically healthy, at 7 weeks the fetus seemed viable, etc.

However, I was in precarious temporary employment, had no family support, didn't own a home, had no financial security, and was in a new relationship. I was also in deep grief for the loss of my own mother.

If I'd been refused an abortion, since requiring it for only "social" reasons, I'd definitely have killed myself rather than continue that pregnancy. In fact that thought occurred to me often after I took the pregnancy test - that one way I could control this out-of-control situation would be to commit suicide...

I honestly can't imagine what it must be like right now for those women in the US, for whom healthcare is so expensive, where the cost of a delivering those unwanted babies can be $20K and upwards... The pure financial terror of it. And none of these (sickening misnomer) "pro-life" groups are offering to cover any of those costs for these forced pregnancies and deliveries...

The hypocrisy makes me nauseous, honestly. Anyone who truly thinks life is sacred HAS TO trust living women to make the right choice for their life. Anytime safe access to abortion is restricted, women will die because of it.

Also quite nasty about people who have religious beliefs.

Mumsnet is not for religious people, non white people, people who are not struggling financially - you get so much hate and are dismissed of your experiences if you fall within these groups and offer an opinion.

The IVF / Infertility boards are the only sane boards. Oh and property.

Hope I don't get kicked off for saying this as as I need the IVF boards.

"If you don't agree with abortion, what is your plan to support the women who will be forced to have children they didn't want? And how do you plan to support the children themselves?
*
Will you campaign for a law that ensures the fathers pay for the children they create? Will you ensure the women are financially compensated for the time they will have off work and the costs associated with pregnancy - clothing, food etc?
Will you ensure that adequate financial provision is made for these children? Will you find the money to invest in our broken maternity services? What about funding for all the new school places that will be needed?

Being anti abortion is totally your right as regards your own body. But if you seek to impose your views on other women, you must accept that a ban on abortion does not reduce pregnancies, it just results in more unwanted babies being born, a cost that should be carried by the whole of the society that has sought to control women's bodies.*"

^^ALL OF THIS

This is pretty vitriolic. Loads of pro-lifers rock up to mumsnet and start using words like ‘murder’, you can’t have read many abortion threads.

How am i sitting on the fence? No fence at all but I am also not perfect so i cannot judge others.

Do you want me to say I disagree with both abortion and IVF and I sit in judgement over others? I disagree with both - very strongly!

I've never been called a murderer by a pro- choicer.

You want to take away a woman's choice.

I would never, and could never give a baby I carried for 9 months and gave birth to up for adoption, I couldn't do it.

However, that does not mean I have the right to take away YOUR choice to do so.

Can you imagine if this latest decision was instead about adoption. So a bunch of people decided it was illegal for you to give the baby up for adoption. Would you think that was fair? Would you think those people were decent?

Do you really not see the difference?

The consequences of an argument aren't the same thing as the argument itself.

I am not sure why you have started this thread if you don't want to understand why people have different beliefs from each other.

My understanding is that only a quarter of people who are anti abortion are also opposed to IVF, and part of that is because people are anti-abortion for different reasons.

Genuinely not being goady, but would like to understand why the value of life doesn't extend to people who could die from giving birth, from living with the physical consequence of rape etc. why is the value of the woman not important?

And fwiw I am squeamish about abortion personally, but pro choice for women who need access to the service

@hangonsnoopy

I didn’t ask why some people are pro choice and others anti it. That has been rehashed time and time again. The difference between the religious and non-religious anti abortion argument is largely semantics.

I asked what pro life advocates stance on IVF was, I am interested in that perspective.

I also think we as women we don’t want to lose what an amazing thing having a baby is. We should value “life” as the rare gift it is. I think it’s a danger being too matter of fact about abortion.
How many more women would keep their babies if money, housing and respect weren’t such an issue.
Clearly there will always be circumstances where a mother will decide it’s in everyone’s interest to terminate but it slightly worries me that we are getting a bit blasé about it.

What I find bizarre with all these Christian misogynistic idiots is that it’s quite clear they have never actually read the Bible. Eg Numbers 11 et seq clearly sets out how a priest is to carry out an abortion. It’s literally there in black and white! Of course it’s written in a completely misogynistic manner with the woman having no choice in the matter. So one can only assume that it’s the matter of giving women a choice in this that’s the issue

If you're pro-life you (whether or not you want to call it this) believe in forced pregnancy and birth that you won't be around to see the consequences of. I've never met a pro-choice person who wouldn't defend the rights of a pro-lifer not to get an abortion that they don't want. One side is inherently more harmful to currently living women than the other. If you're pro life and you own this fact I believe it becomes easier to understand why you may be getting so much 'hate'.

The consequences of an argument aren't the same thing as the argument itself.

What are you arguing for, if not the best possible consequences?

So no problem with you saying you are 'not judging others'

but actually you ARE judging others. You say

you were 'delighted when Roe and Wade were overturned'.

You just SAID that.

That is not 'not judging others'

That is Making a judgement.

You don't want to judge.

Don't judge.

Don't feel anything one way or the other about Roe versus Wade.

With all due respect don't make a judgement on one hand and life about it on the other.

and lie about it on the other hand.
Which you are doing currently.

You have just said you are 'delighted about judgement of Roe versus Wade'

You are JUDGING

Women.

NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER ABOUT THAT ONE

Please stop pretending you are doing anything else.