To think people dont understand why there is a Barristers strike?

[jammywagonwheel]

Following an article about Criminal Barristers striking most of the readers comments seem to be about the fact some of them earn £64,000. The comments are mostly and that they are being entitled as they earn twicethe national wage and should not be paid more than a teacher. Newly qualified Barristers can earn as little as £12,000. I think people are failing to understand how difficult it is to recruit and retain Criminal Barristers when many will simply switch from Criminal law to private practice and the basis for our criminal justice system will be under under threat.

If the right to appropriate representation is no longer achieveable, what do we do?

AIBU to think most people dont undertand the impact this could have?

It's not a race to the bottom but they should get over it. Engineering barely pays this and degree wise is significantly harder to read for.

I don't think there are many degrees more challenging than engineering, yet the ceiling is about £45k in the UK. Hugely undervalued in this country, compared to the rest of the world where were viewed more like doctors.

However, £12k after graduation is outrageous and something needs to be done. I don't expect any government to solve this issue so people should vote with their feet. This would soon drive labour rates up.

Have you dons a law degree to be able to compare the two…

My husband is a lawyer and works full time. Yes that's the wage. I earn more working NHS. He had two years when he wasn't paid after uni too.... He is on a salary and his employer charges £200 an hour for his time. He doesn't get that neither does the firm until the end of the case and the money is to pay for admin, travel cost, office as well as staffing costs of everyone who keeps it going. He gets his salary which is quoted nothing else! Everyone the same . I would strongly advise against studying law at uni.

that is completely untrue, engineers do not have a ceiling of around £45k. I’m on quite a bit more than that and am only in my early thirties, there are many people in my company who earn more than I do.

Of course like any job there are people who don’t progress and so probably do get stuck on a lower salary but that’s not the same for everyone!

Have you dons a law degree to be able to compare the two…

No, have you done an engineering degree?

It's accepted that there are few degrees more difficult. Look it up.

If you haven’t done a law degree how do you know that isn’t one of the degrees that is harder than engineering? Engineering is hard, yes, but so is law.

That’s bollocks

DH runs an engineering firm
Their new grads are on starting salaries of £35k before they are even chartered, and they struggle to fill all their vacancies because of competition with other firms and also with industries like banking wanting them

Once they are chartered, they get a pay rise…

His top guys are on £200k, and the ‘middle management’ are on £100k+

any engineer only earning £45k in a senior position has picked a very poor career path

@Overthebow

What field are you in? £45k is very real for many high end fields in the UK.

I started my own consultancy to get out but most of my old colleagues, who didn't want to enter management, are stuck around this point (give or take).

@SW1amp

Again, what does he do?

I'm into six figures nowadays but run my own company. It's highly dependent on what you do. Obviously.

He runs a multi disciplinary consultancy of around 900 people with around 300 chartered engineers

No one earns less than £35k, I would guesstimate that 95% are earning more than £45k
Nearly all civils and strutures, but other specialists as well

Even the senior council engineers will be earning more than £45k, by following the standard pay scale

Where did you arrive at that number..?

one of the large engineering consultancies. Grads start around £30k, when you’re chartered it’s more like £40-45k and a principal is £60k plus. That’s all before management level. Pay is very similar all the other similar companies.

I know because degrees are ranked, much like universities.

I don't need to know personally as my own anecdotal experience would be useless in itself.

oxfordsummercourses.com/articles/hardest-degrees-in-uk/

thinkstudent.co.uk/hardest-university-degrees/

@Lunar27 i hope you pay your staff a competitive engineering salary abd not just £45k, it’s highly in demand at the moment and salaries are going up!

They have completely different academic requirements for each degree, I’m not saying engineering is an easy degree, yet you seem to be saying law is an easy degree, which is incorrect. as part of my degree I had to take part in mooting, standing up in a mock court, presenting legal arguments based on points of law, involving hours of research into case law, and the critical thinking and understanding to interpret lengthy judgements and obtain key information from the case, then presenting it and thinking on your feet when an opponent comes across with a left field point.

i left law after university mainly due to the salaries in the industry. I also used to work for a very large engineering company, £45k was not a ceiling in my business unit, it was very much one of the lower professional salaries. 45k isn’t even the ceiling for engineering in the civil service, but it’s like everything to earn a higher salary you have to take on more responsibility, usually people management and coaching.

@SW1amp

You're not answering the question. What do they work on?

I'm an aerospace engineer so have worked on things like aircraft, but mostly spacecraft and space missions nowadays. I've spent my career working for companies Airbus, Bombardier etc and can tell you that whilst they attract huge numbers of grads, pay pittance. In fact, aerospace plays on the fact that most enter it for the love and not money.

I know people in Formula 1 and it's similar. Make it to the top and it's different but £40-50k is not unusual.

I pay my consultants about £50/h so much more than £45k.

Anyway let’s not completely derail the thread. Let’s leave it at this. Both engineering and law are hard, law deserves to have decent salaries, as does other professions, and £12k is ridiculous.

@Grumpsy

I think you misread my post.

I didn't say law was easy. That would be rude and disrespectful; just that engineering was more difficult (which I've since backed up).

Yes indeed to confirm that is full time. I work in a small family law firm and my firm charges my time at £250 an hour. I am salaried. My annual bonus is negligible. Last year we all got a £30 M&S gift voucher.

For that princely sum I seem to work all the hours God sends and as I have higher rights of audience, I attend hearings (thus representing clients in court). I have also specialised slightly within one aspect of family law everyone dislikes because I thought it would advance me and it is still my salary. This salary is by no means unusual in my field. Our department manager is on circa £54 k and he has been in the job for 20 years. (And is also very good- on path to be a DDJ).

It has not escaped my notice that the 'recruitment' posters at Aldi make it clear that I am getting paid roughly the same ballpark as a longer term full time store assistance and less than a store manager. This fact has featured recently in several conversations with DH because the stress of my current role is nearly killing me.

I think you’ve misinterpreted my post, I’m not saying engineering isn’t difficult, I’m just saying you seem to think it’s a walk in the park compared to engineering. Law isn’t an easy degree to complete either.

I said it’s a multi-disciplinary working mostly on structures and civils

you want me to name the specific projects?

they’ve designed stretches of Crossrail, they’ve been part of the schools improvement programme, they’ve done parts of the Battersea power station redevelopment, they’ve built hospitals and hotels
They advise offices on how to retrofit to become energy efficient and meet carbon goals, they act as expert witnesses on disputes

Surprised you need an explanation tbh!

You got a £30 marks and Spencer voucher. .I won't tell DH he be upset and he got nothing last year neither did anyone else. I agree he does mutter how much easier it be for less money working elsewhere and tbh I'm not be surprised if he leaves in next couple of years to do something else. He has over 20 years experience. His boss is on similar to yours.

@SW1amp

Apologies, I got you mixed up with another poster who said something similar to you. Sorry!

But yes, civil and structural pays more for sure.

How are barristers paid? Is it solely via legal aid that their clients get?

Depends on what area of law you practice, if it’s an area largely dependant on legal aid eg criminal then it is by the government usually months after the case has finished. If it’s another area eg chancery you can set your own fees and get paid by client directly to chambers.