To think people dont understand why there is a Barristers strike?

[jammywagonwheel]

Following an article about Criminal Barristers striking most of the readers comments seem to be about the fact some of them earn £64,000. The comments are mostly and that they are being entitled as they earn twicethe national wage and should not be paid more than a teacher. Newly qualified Barristers can earn as little as £12,000. I think people are failing to understand how difficult it is to recruit and retain Criminal Barristers when many will simply switch from Criminal law to private practice and the basis for our criminal justice system will be under under threat.

If the right to appropriate representation is no longer achieveable, what do we do?

AIBU to think most people dont undertand the impact this could have?

I'm fairly certain the bills I've paid for barristers was about a thousand a day plus their travel.
Should I have shopped around?

"Except for a huge number of people it’s more in the nature of a vocation than a career."
I don't believe that for a second.

Why wouldn't we think that?

They're self employed. They also have to pay fees for chambers, rent, clerks, tax, VAT, travel costs, insurance etc.

Criminal barristers?

What people don’t seem to get is the discrepancies in salaries depending on field of practice. If you’re a chancery barrister even as a junior you will be making a lot of money, however if you’re a criminal barrister you will not. So the median average is skewed.

I don’t blame criminal barristers leaving in the numbers they are, you can’t stay in a job no matter how much you love it if you can’t afford to survive. Legal aid funding needs a massive overhaul.

only if you wanted a criminal barrister to represent you in a family law or commercial matter - private fees represent the knowledge, expertise and skill that you get from instructing a barrister, the fees the government pay for legal aid make a complete mockery of the profession.

It’s 12k while they’re training though isn’t it? Not once fully qualified. Lots of professions don't get paid anything while they train, in fact they have to pay for the training!

@mumda next time you are a young care leaver with mental health issues and no family support, fixed abode or understanding of the legal system just take the offer a duty solicitor. If you need a barrister later on I am sure you will be very happy with whoever the legal aid system throws up.

You think money is the only motivation for a career?

The reform of legal aid reflects the reform of the NHS and the reform of the welfare state. Ultimately the poorest people receive the worst service, and often those professionals who can, move on to better things, and those in need who can’t pay have to make do with what’s left.

And no one cares until they need the system and can’t afford to pay.

The wigs and gowns suggest membership of an elite group and I think a lot of public sympathy is lost there.

barristers have paid to study at university, either a law degree or another subject (circa. 30k with todays Turin fees for a 3 year course). If they did not study law, they then pay to do a conversion course (GDL- circa 10k). After this, they then pay to do the bar training course (bptc- circa 18k). After this they then get called to the bar and need to find a pupilage (think grad scheme for barristers) - this is the training phase and comes with some form of allowance from chambers. this is the training phase, and for most of it they are paying for their training.

after this, pupil barristers become junior barristers, are self employed and are fee earners. The gross salary is the fee earned (stated in most media outlets as the average) then has deductions, the normal tax and National insurance, and then fees paid to chambers, usually a % of fees earned, insurance, subscriptions to legal resources (required as the law changes, albeit subtly all the time) and also travel (which for criminal work is rarely reimbursed). Not to mention that the legal aid system takes a hell of a long time to actually pay said barrister once they have completed the case.

How long do you think they should be paying for their training exactly? Yes fees increase over time, but not dramatically in criminal law due to set (extremely low) fees from the government.

this is one of those areas you never think you’ll need, a criminal barrister, but if you needed one you would be furious if you didn’t have access, or if the profession no longer attracted the best and brightest because of the pay being so poor.

I’d argue criminal law is one of the most important areas, it’s a persons freedom on the line, their lives, and yet it is the worst paid.

also, could you live on 12k?

@Grumpsy I think your points could also be applied to the medical profession and we have all witnessed how that is panning out.

I have a number of friends who are barristers, the one who went into criminal law (and is very good) made a loss for the first five years AFTER completing her training, as costs (travel, chambers, insurance etc - as they are self employed) was less than she earned, working all hours. She could only afford to do it with the support of her partner and family. Even now, 20 years on, she earns less than the national average. Criminal law pays dreadfully.

Believe what you want. No one goes into criminal law for the money. Would you want to do a lot of travel, deal with harrowing cases (eg murder, child abuse, rape), work 50+ hours a week, be self employed so no holiday pay or sick pay etc., lose money for the first few years, then work for the minimum wage or just under?

@dustandroses I’m not saying the health care system hasn’t also been decimated. And I agree that also needs reform, however, making this case worse is that barristers in criminal law (in a lot of instances) are working for less than minimum wage. Especially when you count the many hours of prep work that they need to undertake.

I thought about the criminal bar after uni, I’d have loved it, but I’m glad I opted to leave law.

people also forget that solicitors are akin to GPs in the legal world, the barrister is the consultant, it’s about time they were able to earn a decent wage for their skills.

This is not correct. Defendants in both the Magistrates' Court and the Crown Court can be unrepresented and increasing numbers are.

The only criminal lawyer I know says he is able to do so as his wife is the bread winner.

£64k is less than I earn and I am 31 with half a degree. These people have invested years and years and thousands of pounds into their career and taken a path which pays less than the alternatives as they believe in justice. This has nothing to do with teachers or those on the breadline. It's not a race to the bottom. Of course something needs to be done about quality of life/cost of living but the idea of the most vulnerable in our society not having representation is horrifying.

You can't force people to work in shitty conditions just because other people are worse off.

’Defendants in both the Magistrates' Court and the Crown Court can be unrepresented and increasing numbers are.’

That’s a disgrace.

£64k a year is a shit top of scale.

It's an okay wage, but not considering what it will take to get there. The years of study - with a price tag, the early years of practice where you aren't really earning. All along the way you work crazy hours and carry a ton of responsibility. Then add the precarious existence- all self employed, no safety net.

Given what people put in to get there, there are better career choices if you are chasing a good income. Averaged over the years and thinking about the cost of benefits like maternity pay, you'd be better off starting out anywhere there are stable jobs and a chance of promotion. Or running your own business where the rate for your effort is a fair reward. If you're as smart as many barristers are, you'll likely do well.

This thread is an eye opener. If someone is willing to strike there's obviously good reason!

I think it's unfair for others to comment on an industry you don't work in yourself personally same for the train strikes too.

I used to be a criminal solicitor. The criminal legal aid system has been disintegrating for years. This strike is about more than barristers' personal income. As a profession, we've tried everything to protect the justice system, which needs robust prosecution and defence systems. Defence solicitors in particular do far more than rock up in court and make a nice speech. There was traditionally a massive social work aspect, with referrals to appropriate services etc. All of that has been chipped away, and the pay is now so ridiculously low that the whole system is in danger of falling apart. It means that we're back to a time when only wealthy people could afford to go to the bar, so diversity and representation is at huge risk.
Criminal solicitors and barristers have always been an easy target for the media. Fat cat lawyers lining their pockets while representing scum. It's a Daily Mail reader's dream. There's also the fact that no one cares about preserving a system that they are smugly sure they'll never need. You have no idea how loudly middle class people scream and yell when they find themselves relying on legal aid when they've done something wrong and think that they are entitled to a gold-plated defence with all the extras, without paying for it. The number of times I had a well-off client (pre means-testing) demanding a QC for their drink-drive case was staggering. Especially when, in their next breath, they were complaining about all the nasty, dirty criminals they were surrounded by in court.
I unfortunately believe that the legal aid system is on its way out, and when it's gone, people might finally understand why it was necessary.

Do you work full time? That wage seems very low considering your 6 years qualified.

Is this action more re legal aid than paid for?

I’m not sure what proportion of cases use legal aid