To think people dont understand why there is a Barristers strike?

[jammywagonwheel]

Following an article about Criminal Barristers striking most of the readers comments seem to be about the fact some of them earn £64,000. The comments are mostly and that they are being entitled as they earn twicethe national wage and should not be paid more than a teacher. Newly qualified Barristers can earn as little as £12,000. I think people are failing to understand how difficult it is to recruit and retain Criminal Barristers when many will simply switch from Criminal law to private practice and the basis for our criminal justice system will be under under threat.

If the right to appropriate representation is no longer achieveable, what do we do?

AIBU to think most people dont undertand the impact this could have?

That is awful and simply not true, I have a very dear friend who studied law and had no contacts, she may well have made some while on her course, but she got sponsored to do her postgraduate studies and did really well. She is exceptionally clever.

They’re technically self-employed, so minimum wage laws don’t apply.

the problem is that the amount legal aid will pay for different types of cases is insanely low. You could spend all day on a complex, traumatic criminal case, you’ll get the standard fee but that will work out as less than minimum wage on an hourly basis, especially as you have to cover your travel costs between courts, you’ll spend time before the court hearing preparing etc.

There are a small number of very successful barristers who have good incomes, and a much higher number of barristers who are not making a living wage.

Of course it’s possible to earn less than minimum wage as a self employed criminal barrister. 1) Legal aid rates are a pittance. 2) They simply can’t work every single working hour of every day because of the example at point 4. 3) They depend on instructions being given to them with very little control if the flow of work dries up temporarily. 4) They’re also paid on a piece rate so if they have the bad luck to have a hearing listed four hours away - tough - the bad luck to have a delay at court that means they’re stuck there for a whole day instead of half - tough, get paid the same pittance.

Barristers are leaving criminal defence in droves because apart from a few elites it’s badly paid, sometimes unpleasant work. God help us if there’s no one to ensure safe convictions - for good lawyers on both sides ensure safe convictions (as distinct from easily achieved convictions) - and what about the fact so many good prosecutors are poacher turned gamekeeper? Unless there is a fundamental change the future of criminal law, and the consequent effect on public safety, is totally screwed.

I see, I didn't realise that. Thanks.

I don't think they see how it effects them in real life terms. They probably don't worry about criminals. They don't see it as they could one day be the victim of crime that has a trial delayed for years or even that they could be the accused.
Barristers have a reputation as well paid. What other job would there be such high competition from so many highly educated candidates to get less than minimum wage, huge amount of travel, and generally be treated badly?
The income of criminal barristers now basically makes it only a career choice for those with a well off family would can support them. The training including degree will be well in excess of 60-70k.

I think this is the case with virtually all strikes though.
You get one news outlet quoting the employers' version, another outlet quoting the unions' claim and the truth is usually some distance from either figure, or detail.

I'm in an allied profession, and yanbu. People see the gown, posh accent and make assumptions.

Yanbu.
Although I do as I follow a lot of barristers / legal people on twitter.

I went to a University open day and the law lecturers actually stood in front of 100s of potential law students and said if you dont already have contacts in a legal firm you may as well not bother studying law as you won't get a job.

I suspect you misunderstood this and they were saying that its necessary to get lots of work experience etc. If not then they're idiots because it isn't true. It is true that you need excellent academic results and it is true that work experience, vacation placements, viewing trials and hearings etc will all help you to understand the role and therefore help to increase your changes of getting a job.

I am s solicitor. 6 years post quals and earn £24 k.

My own DH who knows how much I earn said that barristers are taking the piss.

Barristers have always earned less than us post qual. My friend who did the oriignal GDL with me earns £12 k.

Fat cat lawyers are a myth that was sold to us when we retained thinking it would be worth it. It's not.

That is awful and simply not true, I have a very dear friend who studied law and had no contacts, she may well have made some while on her course, but she got sponsored to do her postgraduate studies and did really well. She is exceptionally clever

so based on your “exceptional” friend, you feel able to declare it simply not true for everyone else as well?

i know many barristers are concerned the profession will again become elitist, as even with sponsorships and bursaries many from low income or less privileged backgrounds will not be able to afford to pursue the bar. You’ll need money to support yourself until established.

many people don’t realise about the cab rank rule either, barristers can’t pick and choose their cases.

Well there are a lot of strikes or talks of striking at the minute. The public have limited attention headspace/empathy to devote to all of them.

Its more of a gamble than other careers. I know a few people who didn't make it as barristers. They did fine in other areas however, as they're smart, skilled people. I can see why sympathy is limited.

The bigger issue is getting those from less privileged backgrounds into the profession. But that's about more than pay.

So one PP has never met a poor barrister? I have. I was one for a while. (A long time ago.) Like so many I left the profession because I couldn’t afford to live.

Brief fees of £46-whatever-it-was might sound ok but factor in prep time, travel time and the hearing itself and it’s easy to drop below NMW levels. Then there’s the length of time to get the £ …..which depends on your clerk and the instructing solicitor’s firm. I know plenty of people who measure outstanding fees in the years rather than the months.

I thought they’d be on more than 64k tbh.
I don’t know much about the strike but didn’t think they’d be striking for the shits and giggles.

When I was deciding whether to go down the barrister/solicitor route I was told by quite a few people that it wasn't realistic to qualify as a barrister unless you had a "private income" to support you during the training.

Access to justice is already severely limited by the ability to pay and the criminal justice system is on its knees, people are being held on remand for very long periods (often over a year).

I think it's true that people see it as "rich, posh people who defend criminals" and don't appreciate that the system cannot function without defence representation and there is a very real risk that the system will collapse as things stand.

so you have met one legal aid criminal barrister and think no legally aided barrister is poor?! I think you need to meet a few more before passing judgment.

The amount of work and hours barrister do as well for the pay- it’s not just a day in court, it’s all the prep and preparing skeleton arguments ect that the public doesn’t see!! People see commercial barrister and think criminal defence barrister must be on the same wage 🙈

It is true. Only some lawyers earn mega-bucks. It's true I don't know any hard-up lawyers, but none of them are at the Criminal Bar (or indeed are criminal law solicitors) - with good reason. It's not just that it's badly paid, it's also long, unsociable hours and emotionally draining. They are also self-employed so no sick pay etc.

You might think they're trying to defend toe rags they know to be guilty but wait until it's one of your friends or family who is accused of doing something they haven't. Or even that they have - and you want them to get the lightest sentence possible. Everyone is entitled to legal representation and if the State is accusing you of something, the State should adequately pay for you to defend yourself or put forward mitigating circumstances. We can all think of examples where we just want someone locked up and the key thrown away but most cases are not like that.

@Ricardothesnowman my husband is a soldier with two masters degrees, he works such long hours he earns much less than minimum wage. I’m sure lots of people do.

I’ve just finished reading Unlawful Killings by Wendy Joseph and the Sarah Langford book, In Your Defence. It’s really easy to take something for granted if you’ve never had to use it. We know that if you’re charged with a criminal offence you get legal representation if you can’t afford to pay for it yourself. It’s accepted as a basic human right.

If you want a working criminal justice system we need barristers to be fairly paid for legal aid work. If they aren’t then we’ll end up with fewer barristers doing criminal work. There are much more lucrative areas of law. If there aren’t enough barristers taking on the work we’ll get longer delays in cases coming to court. Does anyone want dangerous people walking around free to do more harm or innocent people stuck in prison on remand for months because the government won’t pay a fair rate for legal aid work? Victims kept waiting to testify? Families waiting for justice?

Pay them what the independent review has already said they should be paid.

People don't give a shit about criminal defence. Until it's THEIR son being accused of rape.

’Harriet Johnson, a barrister and the author of Enough: The Violence Against Women and How to End It, should also have been defending in Newcastle on Monday. She described driving eight hours there last week to get to a brief hearing for which she was paid just £60.’

“The petrol cost about £100, and out of my fee I have to pay my chambers, the VAT man, the tax man. It is always the barristers who pick up the slack because after you have met your client and looked them in the eyes you’re not going to then go: ‘Sorry mate, I’m going to sit this one out because I’m going to make a loss on this day.’”

Same as the rail strike.

The media quote a train drivers salary and everyone fixates on that.

They don't bother to look past the end of their nose and find out the truth.

If the Daily Mail print it - it must be true 🤦‍♀️

You can’t have someone convicted in a court unless they’re represented. You need defence barristers if you want criminals to be found guilty!

The bigger issue is getting those from less privileged backgrounds into the profession. But that's about more than pay

not really, the pay factors in quite heavily as if the wage is only 12k initially anyone from a less privileged background will be excluded as they won’t have other income streams to support themselves through training and the early years.

I'm a doctor. One of my siblings is a barrister. I wholeheartedly support the action by the criminal bar.

Training is gruelling and expensive. It's small wonder in the current climate why the civil bar is relatively over subscribed with new entrants and the criminal bar struggling. This badly needs reformed - both for those who practice criminal law and for wider society. In order to function as a democracy we need a strong, independent judiciary and for those accused of crimes to have access to decent legal advice.

Access to the bar by those from a more diverse background needs addressed separately (and it really does).