To think people dont understand why there is a Barristers strike?

[jammywagonwheel]

Following an article about Criminal Barristers striking most of the readers comments seem to be about the fact some of them earn £64,000. The comments are mostly and that they are being entitled as they earn twicethe national wage and should not be paid more than a teacher. Newly qualified Barristers can earn as little as £12,000. I think people are failing to understand how difficult it is to recruit and retain Criminal Barristers when many will simply switch from Criminal law to private practice and the basis for our criminal justice system will be under under threat.

If the right to appropriate representation is no longer achieveable, what do we do?

AIBU to think most people dont undertand the impact this could have?

I have a law degree and would've loved to take the bar, but coming from a family where I needed to earn straight out of uni I couldn't afford to. One of the reasons you get a lot of upper class barristers is because mummy and daddy can afford to bank roll them in the lean early years and pay the additional fees for BVC etc. It's also because it very much is a face fits industry in a lot of areas, friend who went to public school went for an interview, her mother's godfather interviewed her she got the training context and fees covered. Almost unheard of even then. She studied ancient history.....
I work in a different part of the criminal justice system now and the cuts to legal aid are devastating, surely the whole premise of our justice system is based on the right to a fair trial?

I hear what you say that some maybe on a low wage but I've never met a poor barrister

Not surprising when you look at the hours worked/pay received ratio. I’m guessing a lot don’t spend much time socialising with random people.

It's always interesting (maybe even telling) in cases like this as to which side of the argument is first to quote the average wage stat. We've seen it with train drivers even though it's not just drivers who are striking and now we're seeing it with barristers - "but they earn an average of £64k!"

It suggests to me that there are a lot of stats (see also house prices) where the average is driven by a few high outliers and people just aren't aware of it but hopefully take on board some of the counter arguments quoted on here.

It is true. And not just in pupillage but beyond. Barristers are given rates for a certain type of work. The rates presume they will spend a certain (small) number of hours on that work. If it takes longer, or there are adjournments (nothing to do with the barrister), that is still all they get. So in a complex case, say an assault where phone records need to be looked at and analysed, , they get £x for doing the work whether there are 12 or 12,000 messages. They get £y for representing someone at trial no matter how long the trial is.

In my experience they want to do a good job so that’s what they do, often to their own detriment, but it isn’t uncommon for them to be doing it for less than the minimum wage. And they are tired, and stressed. And someone’s liberty may well depend on them. We should all be rising up about this, and making it clear that, yes, some barristers earn many thousands of £ a year. But some don’t. And one day your liberty, your safety, might be in their hands. Get informed, read The Secret Barrister, read everything you can about this and at least understand the issues.

The justice system is on its absolute knees and it's only going to get worse.
Criminal barristers are leaving in their droves. Cases take years to get to court.
It's a disgrace.

Had it not been for an interview I saw about a couple of weeks ago, I would be none the wiser.

The government led by a law breaker have no wish to see justice and this is another example.

Yep. White collar crime from wealthy individuals pays a lot. Those clients are few and far between and no doubt have barristers that share a status with Baroness Shackleton.

I met lots of barristers when I worked in civil litigation. Quite a few loved criminal work but couldn't afford to do it full time so used civil cases for the bulk of their income and did criminal work maybe 10-20% of their time. The money they got from criminal work didn't cover the actual time spent on a case. If it had, they would have been woefully underprepared for court.

Did anyone see the story today about the woman on trial for murder who was ordered to represent herself? I only saw it in passing, but its terrifying to think that if I was accused of something I may not be able to get represented - I wouldnt have a clue where to start.

Yep. Legal aid lawyers have propped it up long enough.

Absolutely. I work with barristers and solicitors as part of my job (although family law) and very many earn nothing near the wages quoted in the press. It is also a pretty thankless but essential job and the hours involved are insane. The Tory party and their press poodles are at it again, fuelling hate and division. Most people will have no idea, never rubbing up against the justice system in their day-to-day lives. However I think we would all want it to be there for us if we or those we love need it?

The willingness of the UK public to accept the rhetoric that public sector workers or those who act for the public in this case are just lucky to have a job, should put up and shut up for the good of the country (for over a decade) and we all have a golden plated pension and massive benefits really has to stop. There is a massive talent drain, services are not functioning and people cannot be recruited to the NHS, social services or the civil service for example. It is probably now impossible to reverse.

It sounds so much like what’s happened with GPs. Pay and working conditions leading to a huge drop in those choosing to enter that profession, lots of very early retirements and doctors leaving to work in related fields. This in turn leaves those who remain under more pressure because of staffing shortages which makes working conditions worse leading to stressed and disillusioned. Add on Covid and it implodes.

I only know that it’s far from unusual for barristers have really low incomes because of a mumsnetter who used to post fairly regularly. I think her user name was something like BabyBarrister. It was a while ago, but it was eye opening.

I was stunned to see how little barristers are paid for legal aid cases. And then they have to pay for their own transport etc. And of course as they're not paid for the time it takes to read up on the case, they're unlikely to do a great job.

In my volunteer role, I've had to support people who are appearing in court. I was appalled at the clear unpreparedness of those barristers representing them (all legal aid cases) but now I understand why.

This is one of the rains I didn’t go into the bar after leaving university (law degree). It’s woefully underpaid for the hours put into the job, and the skills required.

I took the route of doing a grad scheme in business, and after 8 years earn a salary that would take me 20 years to earn as a criminal law barrister.

The legal aid system needs a complete overhaul.

• reasons - stupid phone typing 🤦🏻‍♀️

When I worked in law I couldn't have afforded my own fees! I remember my boss (a partner) laughing at that statement but I wasn't joking.

I suppose it’s like comparing nurses and junior doctors with top private surgeons.

It would be easy to label people as fat cats if some in their profession earn loads but I imagine it’s like public sector medicine v private sector medicine.

Public sector you don’t expect to earn loads but you would hope to be earning more than £12K!

It’s the wigs that makes them look old fashioned, rich and pompous.

Imagine if doctors, police officers or teachers had to dress in such outdated uniforms? People would assume they were rich too.

The way it was reported on the news was that it was about Legal Aid. That was it.

So you’re right, without seeking more info most people probably don’t know much.

They also pay tax on money they are deemed to have earned in the tax year that the case takes place but they may not receive the money for the case until a subsequent tax year so that massively affects take home money and cashflow.

I was called to the bar. I worked really hard to get there, but in the end I walked away, I couldn't justify going on to the early years of practice where I would have had to work harder than I ever had in my life only to be paid a pittance, i had rent to pay. I took a job in a big company and became an in-house lawyer. The conditions were so much better. Regular salary, guaranteed. No chambers bills to pay. No travel costs out of your own pocket. Sick pay, maternity pay, pension contributions. And reasonable hours.

It is true that a number of barristers are doing well, they are the few. At the criminal bar and especially in the early years it must be very hard to survive.

I've been on legal aid. Been represented by a barrister or two.

It saved my life, my DD and probably my sanity.

Perhaps it is one of those things that unless it touches your life directly...

I saw the online article in the daily mail earlier and it certainly wasn’t clear. But I did remember reading ages ago about criminal law barristers not being well paid and saw some of the placards about “crime doesn’t pay” so read between the lines that the 64k quoted included the better paid streams of barristers.

And barristers prosecute criminals as well as defend them. So the discussion about 'legal aid' is more complex than it looks i.e. if you are a woman leaving a domestic abuse situation and are also economically abused - you may have legal aid as your only recourse to get divorced, keep your kids...and so on.

If you are the survivor of an attack it means that even if you are strong enough to report it - that awful wait before the trial takes place will longer because of the cuts.

In terms of back log Covid will have struck hard. On the case I was in next door one trial was supposed to be 8 weeks was 7 months, much of it due to interruptions. Astounding to think that was repeated in crown courts throughout the pandemic, plus jury trials stopped.

The barrister was really good but I have no idea if they were legal aid or paid for, what’s the likelihood in a corporate theft case? maybe not legal aid

Sorry about multiple posts - I feel strongly about this - literally lives are in their hands. I know this first hand.