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Original poster

The Abortion Overton window

321 replies

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/06/2022 17:57

There's already been a few and there will be more.

Following the American decision regarding abortion, campaigners and trolls will be trying to move abortion provision in other counties, including the UK, into a 'debate'. Our right to safe, accessible, free healthcare isn't a debate. As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

Please consider, when opening threads about abortion at the moment, that the aim is to move the Overton window. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#:~:text=The%20Overton%20window%20is%20the,as%20the%20window%20of%20discourse

I'm not enabling voting because that would rather feed into my point.

OP posts:
Walserwasstrange · 26/06/2022 22:48

@RadicalisedByMumzNet I am aware of the debate around Downs Syndrome and the recent court case – and the outcome. However, I’m not aware that I had stated that to claim late-term abortions happened at all was a form of scaremongering, I was referring to posters who suggest it is both rife at 30-plus weeks and not in any way subject to medical oversight - the kind of comments that the previous post I cited also appeared to be responding to, at least in part. From your tone, you appear to be ‘picking’ some kind of argument with me but since it’s unclear what the basis for that actually is I’ll leave you to fight it out in whatever imaginary, mental arena you’ve constructed.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 26/06/2022 23:15

Blimeyherewegoagain · 26/06/2022 22:23

Whilst we’re discussing the matter of choice, and that it’s a woman’s right to choose right up to term, is anyone considering the process by which a late or term abortion is carried out. It’s brutal however you look at it.
Are people arguing that in theory it’s ok for a woman to choose this because we trust all women and that’s ok?

(Replying for the lurkers)

Of the 839,000 pregnancies in the UK each year, about 260 end in a termination after 24 weeks of gestation.

These are extremely rare procedures, performed in heart-breaking circumstances, almost always on pregnancies that were very much wanted - otherwise they would have been terminated earlier. Sometimes it is to save the life of the mother e.g. if haemorrhaging, sometimes it's because the mother needs treatment such as chemo, sometimes - as happened to a friend of mine, it's because the foetus has abnormalities that are not compatible with life. Her baby would have died at birth. She did not discover this until after 24 weeks, due to Covid-related delays in scanning. Do think she should have carried him for another 16 weeks, and go through a delivery, knowing he would die?

Term abortion is non-existent procedure, made up by anti-abortion campaigners in the US, so your use of it is telling. Very, very occasionally in late pregnancy, doctors may have to make a choice between letting both mother and baby die versus saving the mother but not the baby. Do you think that the mother should be allowed to die, as a matter of principle, because the baby cannot be saved too?

MissingGrandstand · 26/06/2022 23:17

Well written @MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Blimeyherewegoagain · 27/06/2022 13:05

I think maternal life is to be prioritised.

FemmeNatal · 27/06/2022 13:29

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2022 22:14

You're just doing what I'm talking about. Fucking about with hypotheticals to distract from the actual issue. Women being denied the right to end pregnancy safely.

You'd rather talk about some incredibly unlikely scenario with a psychotic woman trying to end a pregnancy in labour. Demonstrating my point beautifully.

If you are calling for it to be allowed then of course people will push back. I do not want the law to allow your extreme position to come to pass. I will fight to stop it happening. Putting that as your aim will make a great many normal women react with disgust, and refuse to get on board.

Pushing for the retention of abortion on-demand up to 24 weeks and for it to be based on acute medical need beyond that will have pretty much everyone in the U.K. on board.

Hagiography · 27/06/2022 13:35

Sorry, not read the whole thread, but

useful stats/facts from Caroline Criado Perez:

newsletter.carolinecriadoperez.com/issues/invisible-women-roe-v-wade-1240290

'What abortion bans do categorically result in are:
An increase in maternal mortality, both from desperate women – and let’s not forget, children – who will seek unsafe abortions when there are no legal abortions available, and women who develop complications in their pregnancy but cannot access the healthcare they need because anti-abortion laws mean doctors won’t treat them.'

Braggiography · 27/06/2022 13:39

Also noting women in Northern Ireland are still struggling to access abortion.

blogs.bmj.com/bmjsrh/2021/01/13/current-abortion-provision-in-northern-ireland/

RadicalisedByMumzNet · 27/06/2022 13:47

Walserwasstrange · 26/06/2022 22:48

@RadicalisedByMumzNet I am aware of the debate around Downs Syndrome and the recent court case – and the outcome. However, I’m not aware that I had stated that to claim late-term abortions happened at all was a form of scaremongering, I was referring to posters who suggest it is both rife at 30-plus weeks and not in any way subject to medical oversight - the kind of comments that the previous post I cited also appeared to be responding to, at least in part. From your tone, you appear to be ‘picking’ some kind of argument with me but since it’s unclear what the basis for that actually is I’ll leave you to fight it out in whatever imaginary, mental arena you’ve constructed.

Bizarre, not a fight just a comment, on a thread, full of comments. Where you said scaremongering and you agreed with the quoted pp that late term abortion is only available if the life of the mother was at risk. As I said,a bizarre response.

titchy · 27/06/2022 14:22

If you are calling for it to be allowed then of course people will push back. I do not want the law to allow your extreme position to come to pass. I will fight to stop it happening. Putting that as your aim will make a great many normal women react with disgust, and refuse to get on board.

Pushing for the retention of abortion on-demand up to 24 weeks and for it to be based on acute medical need beyond that will have pretty much everyone in the U.K. on board.

Do you actually understand what you are doing? Do you understand that you are weakening the support for legal abortion up to 24 weeks.

If that is what you want because your position is that you are anti-abortion - be honest. Own it. Be a proud pro-lifer.

PetraBP · 27/06/2022 15:08

Hmm… interesting how many people here go nuts when TRA’s start bandying about

“Transwomen are Women #nodebate”

but are offended at the idea of abortion being a topic for debate.

Surely there’s very little that’s not up for debate?

PetraBP · 27/06/2022 15:16

Here’s a question for you.

If we have a 100% right to choose to terminate a pregnancy at any stage, as some of the people here seem to advocate, and the foetus is removed whole, alive and viable, why should it not be allowed to live?

DashboardConfessional · 27/06/2022 15:16

PetraBP · 27/06/2022 15:08

Hmm… interesting how many people here go nuts when TRA’s start bandying about

“Transwomen are Women #nodebate”

but are offended at the idea of abortion being a topic for debate.

Surely there’s very little that’s not up for debate?

Oh god. Do we have to?

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2022 15:19

As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

OneOfThoseOldFashionedWomen · 27/06/2022 15:21

As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

GenderCriticalTrumpets · 27/06/2022 15:30

All great points from @MrsTerryPratchett , thank you.

I am an adoptee and still pro choice.

DorritLittle · 27/06/2022 15:32

I agree OP.

I trust women.

titchy · 27/06/2022 15:36

PetraBP · 27/06/2022 15:16

Here’s a question for you.

If we have a 100% right to choose to terminate a pregnancy at any stage, as some of the people here seem to advocate, and the foetus is removed whole, alive and viable, why should it not be allowed to live?

I'm beginning to think some posters think this is a thread for discussing whether abortion is right or wrong.

If you do understand what the thread is about - thank you for illustrating the point so well.

If you've misunderstood the point of the thread and are pro-choice - then you have fallen into the trap. Please try and understand what shifting the Overton window is.

NewHouseNoMoney · 27/06/2022 16:09

I saw a newspaper headline this morning that said protesting about women’s rights at Glastonbury was “making Glastonbury political.”

Since when are women’s rights political? Up for debate?

PetraBP · 27/06/2022 16:10

My earlier point was nothing should be beyond debate.

Clearly the UK and most EU countries have what most would regard as a sensible approach to reproductive rights, but there will be those on the fringes who support extremes such as abortion on demand up to the point of birth (which I hope most sane women would regard as wrong) to the other extreme those who think abortion is wrong in principle to the point where they would rather let the mother die than permit a lifesaving abortion.

Abhorrent as the two extremes I’ve illustrated here are, does that mean they’re beyond debate? In a democratic society, I don’t think they are.

Others are welcome to disagree with me. It is a debate, after all!

FemmeNatal · 27/06/2022 16:16

titchy · 27/06/2022 14:22

If you are calling for it to be allowed then of course people will push back. I do not want the law to allow your extreme position to come to pass. I will fight to stop it happening. Putting that as your aim will make a great many normal women react with disgust, and refuse to get on board.

Pushing for the retention of abortion on-demand up to 24 weeks and for it to be based on acute medical need beyond that will have pretty much everyone in the U.K. on board.

Do you actually understand what you are doing? Do you understand that you are weakening the support for legal abortion up to 24 weeks.

If that is what you want because your position is that you are anti-abortion - be honest. Own it. Be a proud pro-lifer.

Don’t be ridiculous. Supporting the rules as they are in the UK today isn’t weakening support for it.

I have no idea what mental gymnastics you had to do to turn support into opposition but I’m going to go ahead and assume you aren’t what we’d call well-educated.

RadicalisedByMumzNet · 27/06/2022 16:22

Others are welcome to disagree with me. It is a debate, after all!

No, this thread isn't. #ITrustWomen

DashboardConfessional · 27/06/2022 16:28

PetraBP · 27/06/2022 16:10

My earlier point was nothing should be beyond debate.

Clearly the UK and most EU countries have what most would regard as a sensible approach to reproductive rights, but there will be those on the fringes who support extremes such as abortion on demand up to the point of birth (which I hope most sane women would regard as wrong) to the other extreme those who think abortion is wrong in principle to the point where they would rather let the mother die than permit a lifesaving abortion.

Abhorrent as the two extremes I’ve illustrated here are, does that mean they’re beyond debate? In a democratic society, I don’t think they are.

Others are welcome to disagree with me. It is a debate, after all!

Do you think gay and interracial marriage should be up for debate? How about womens' right to vote? Do we want that to become something where the anti side has a platform which is considered reasonable?

titchy · 27/06/2022 16:52

Don’t be ridiculous. Supporting the rules as they are in the UK today isn’t weakening support for it.

Again you illustrate the point of the thread, and why OP started it in the first place. Please if you genuinely do support choice read what the Overton window is, and how those you debate with will attempt to move it - just as you are doing, in order to move onlookers' perceptions of the debate towards their own views. This is EXACTLY what the Overton window is and EXACTLY what you are feeding into.

The reality is that those very late terminations are overwhelmingly tragedies as the baby is very much wanted. Your opponents use these tragedies to make a very theoretical point, that has no basis in reality, that being pro-choice includes (was it this thread or another?) full term women being wheeled off to the Labour ward deciding on a whim to terminate.

I have a sneaky suspicion you know that though, but the lurkers may not be clear on your tactic so I hope it's clearer.

I trust women.

Pippinbird · 27/06/2022 17:47

Let’s stop indulging the posters pretending to ‘open up the debate’ - it’s false flag motives by the anti abortion movement!

IGNORE*

DO NOT ENGAGE