The Abortion Overton window

[MrsTerryPratchett]

There's already been a few and there will be more.

Following the American decision regarding abortion, campaigners and trolls will be trying to move abortion provision in other counties, including the UK, into a 'debate'. Our right to safe, accessible, free healthcare isn't a debate. As soon as people start behaving as though essential healthcare for women is debatable, we are in a dangerous place.

Please consider, when opening threads about abortion at the moment, that the aim is to move the Overton window. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#:~:text=The%20Overton%20window%20is%20the,as%20the%20window%20of%20discourse

I'm not enabling voting because that would rather feed into my point.

My earlier point was nothing should be beyond debate.

We'll go and start a 'debate' about slavery, eugenics, the right to beat or rape your wife, child labour, any one of a number of barbaric things which have been legal recently or are legal elsewhere.

Here, we trust women to make their own choices.

Thanks!!!!! This exactly.

Of course.

I would hope that reasoned and rational debate would put the 0.0001% of wackos who don’t support them in their place, but starting to decree that certain things are beyond debate and that there are objective truths about things leads to fascism.

The very fact that someone is disagreeing with you means it’s a debate, surely?

You seem very invested in THIS being a debate. Which makes me think you know exactly what you're doing.

Do you understand what the Overton window is?

Yes. It’s the “window” or boundaries of that which is thought of to be acceptable public discourse.

For instance, there may be a range of differing “middle-ground” views on a particular topic which nevertheless are deemed acceptable.

For example, in the abortion instance, most European countries permit abortion on demand (or virtually on demand, labelled “social reasons”) until a point that varies between 12 and 24 weeks, depending on the jurisdiction, with abortion on medical grounds permitted later.

Holding a view that abortion on demand should be permissible until 12, 16, 18, 20 or 24 weeks would be considered “mainstream” and within the window, but a view that abortion should be banned completely even if a woman’s life is at risk, or at the other extreme that abortion should be permitted up to the moment of birth would be considered extreme and outwith the window (or on the fringes of it).

It surprises me that the “do not engage” people on this topic are probably some of those who criticise the “do not engage” approach of TRA’s.

Ironically, it is often those who are on the extremes themselves that like to think that “their” position is right and should should not be up for debate.

I would like to think that my own views on most things are actually quite mainstream, but I think it’s much healthier to debate with extremists than just shut them down.

Yes actually, because those things which were once thought to be beyond debate were abolished and eradicated due to reasoned debate.

Without reasoned debate we would still believe the Earth is flat.

Remember when the long-standing leader of the BNP was finally allowed on Question Time after years of being no platformed? He made a complete prick of himself and his evil racist party died a death. All due to reasoned debate.

Just telling somebody “shut up, you’re wrong, I’m right, I’m not going to engage” only impresses those in echo chambers.

PetraBP

very well said.

Additionally I would argue that those extremists on this thread who think abortion should be available to any woman who demands it, at any stage of pregnancy for any reason are trying to move the Overton Window just as much as the pro lifers/forced birthers are.

You seem unwilling to acknowledge what people are patiently explaining over and over

The late term abortions you seem so concerned by, are incredibly rare and are given in specific contexts. Woman aren't just demanding a late term abortion for the hell of it.

Abortion restrictions (and barriers to contraception and sex education) are a completely seperate point.

bronzepig

I have no idea what you are talking about-
no one on this thread has said that late stage abortions are common or that late stage abortions for anything other than severe medical issues are ever happening.
a number of people are advocating for them to be able to happen though - for any reason at all including the author of this thread.

The Overton window is about the accepted form of debate. No one apart from extremists nutjobs think that allowing healthy 39 week old babies to be aborted because their mother wishes it to happen is acceptable therefore it falls outside the Overton Window.

the people on this thread have gone so far as to say that their line of it being acceptable for babies up to birth to be aborted for any reason is so right that it actually shouldn’t be debated at all.

thus it is the people who are so desperate to see the window not moved to the right who are actually pushing for it to be moved to the left.

bronzepig

again, if you believe that this should remain the case
‘The late term abortions you seem so concerned by, are incredibly rare and are given in specific contexts.’
you’re not actually pro-choice at all.

Always be suspicious about the timings of the anti abortion posts. Notice how they are mainly in the evening. This is anti abortion movement stateside trying their best to ‘open the debate’ here in the UK*

IGNORE*

DO NOT ENGAGE

Pippinbird

not one person on this thread is ‘anti-abortion.

Unless you honestly think that the average person in the street thinks ‘abortion at any stage for any reason’ is ok then actually the vast majority of people on this thread are completely out of touch with both the Overton window and the public.
and your it must be Americans as no British people could think aborting 39 week old babies is bad is frankly bizarre.

bless you with your ridiculous little conspiracy theories - I’m sure Americans are well versed in Brighton murder cases from several years ago…..

Pippinbird

and who the actual fuck do you think they are telling people they must not engage with people making perfectly normal points.

perhaps you aren’t a fascist but you are doing an excellent job of coming over as one.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here?

I beleive it's a woman's right to choose. What is happening in the US is the removal of the right to access abortion.

You're deliberately swerving this into the idea of late term abortions, when this isn't something that is relevant to the current argument.

Yes obviously, if it was the case that the majority of abortions were of woman were having late term abortions as an alternative to contraception (which is what the forced birth lobbyists would have you believe), then it would require tighter policies.But this is not the case and is not the argument here.

I don't have much interest in engaging with you when you so clearly have agenda. Why is another's woman's body so important to you?

And to be clear - before you misinterpret my post - this is not the reality we are living in, this is not what statistics tell us about who is having abortions, when, and why- which is why I wholeheartedly support as early as possible, as late as necessary.

These aren't "perfectly normal points"

Don't get an abortion if you don't want to, don't try and control what other women do.

In fact, it's exactly the same mantra repeated to all the anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists, who also used to post on MN repeatedly late at night.

"My body, my choice" when it comes to wearing a mask, not when it comes to someone's reproductive rights.

bronzepig

if the idea of late term abortions etc is so irrelevant why have people on this thread who are pro choice not merely said ‘abortion should be allowed as it is now’
rather than
‘abortion must be allowed at any time for any reason?’

you state this:

‘Yes obviously, if it was the case that the majority of abortions were of woman were having late term abortions as an alternative to contraception (which is what the forced birth lobbyists would have you believe), then it would require tighter policies’

but that is not pro choice if you are saying there should be tighter policies.

I’m just pointing out the inconsistencies.

people can believe that abortion up to birth is fine of course or that no abortion should be allowed. I would argue that both these positions are equally extreme yet the predominant voices on this thread have said that the former is right and good and the latter is evil, bigoted etc. that does not make sense to me.

It's actually laughable.

And again, just like all the anti-vaccine posters. Take an example, twist it to suit your narrative, and ignore the thousands of other examples that demonstrate the opposite.

hepatocyte

not sure what weirdos you hang around with - but no one I know thinks that abortions should be allowed for any reason up to birth.

But one point I would agree with is that this conversation doesn’t help the roe v wade situation/ruling so I will bow out of this thread now.

Where did I say "tighter policies" surrounding abortion? Hint - I didn't.

You realise there are multiple public health and policy interventions that can decrease unplanned pregancies, ensure women can access emergency contraception and abortion early on, and provide a safe environment in which to have a child if they were someone living in adversity.

You so blinkered by trying to control other's choices you fail to see this.

Again - don't get an abortion if you don't want to, but why do you care so much about other women's freedom to choose?

I don't know why I'm engaging.

But it's irrelevant to link a case where a mother killed her children and then try and use it in your anti-choice agenda.