To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

YABU - trans women are not women.
Correct.
YANBU - I support trans rights
Correct. I support human rights.
Trans people are human it doesn't make a trans woman a woman.

Again, what are they identifying as? How do they know they are a woman if no one can define it? You’ve just tanked your own argument and proved categorically transwomen are not women. Well done.

So all women 'feel' the same do they?

What is this 'feeling' you have op?

No I don’t think so, but the fact that this subject is complex and nuanced doesn’t negate the fact, for me, that trans women are women.

Stolen you've admitted you think trans woman have woman gender.

And that gender and sex aren't the same.

Therefore a male sex person can be a trans woman.

But a male sex person identifying with woman's gender can it be a woman.

You are the one confusing the 2 it seems.

And you should have the answer to the refuge question if you're making such huge statements about trans woman being woman. You need to know when you make these statements that this means you also think trans woman should be in woman only sex spaces like female hospital wards, female prisons, refuges for females who have suffered sexual and domestic violence from males.

I've not seen 1 person on this thread say trans woman shouldn't be free to be who they want to be. Just that they shouldn't be allowed to invade woman only sex spaces.

This is meaningless, can't you see that?

What is the "something"? What is the difference between a ''woman' gender identity and a 'man' gender identity?

If you can't answer this, how can you be so sure that anyone is a woman "in terms of gender identity"?

So you don't believe that woman have XX chromosomes and males have XY?

You're right - MN isn't the place for you. But I'm sure the lancet are crying out for such scientific expertise and you could join their chats?

Nope. I can only speak for feeling like a woman myself. I feel I was born in the right body.

If someone else in a different body tells me they feel like a woman and identify as a woman, I believe them. I don’t know what exactly their feelings are, we can only know our own, but I trust their assessment of their own feelings.

So if 'woman' is a feeling, do all women have that same 'feeling' of being a woman, and if a biological woman DOESNT have that feeling, does that make her a non-woman? Or a man? Or non binary or something else?

You can't make laws/rules based on something so nebulous though.
I mean, they would be wide open to being taken advantage of, wouldn't they?
Anyone with nefarious intent would be able to claim something they didn't really believe just to get extra rights' and no one would ever be able to disagree with them.

I mean it is all very kind and accommodating, but it is no way to set up legal systems, or ensure safeguarding.

But how do you feel like a woman?

Can you feel like other things you are not?

How does trying to redefine the word women not fundamentally affect females? Sod off. The only people it doesn't affect are men.

Ok what about the people that identify as girls? Not just female but 6,8,10 yo girls. They FEEL like children,they act like children. Are they girls/children?

Please tell us why you believe that trans women are women.

Don't you “believe in” biology?

If they tell me they are sure, that’s good enough for me. What more do you want, and why?

Why are people here so determined to tell other people what they are and what they’re not? I genuinely don’t understand it. If someone tells me they identify a particular way, I believe them and support them. I really don’t understand why it causes so much rage for people.

There are complicated issues, yes, of prisons, refuges etc. But I don’t see why this makes people determined to tell trans women they are not what they feel they are.

Do you believe Rachel Dolezal is black?

Thank you for answering my question. For me, the prison issue is primary. Would i be happy to be locked in an 8'x12' cell with a male i didn't know, but who might well be a convicted sex offender? Would I be happy for my 19 year old autistic daughter to be locked in that cell? Would it make me feel better if that male was wearing a dress and lipstick and swearing blind their name was Gloria?

The answer to every one of those questions is no, for me and for virtually every woman I know. Therefore this not a nuanced debate. If you truly believe TWAW, they must go to women's prisons. That is 100% unacceptable to me.

How do you feel anything? I exist in a female body and it feels right and comfortable to me.

If someone tells me they don’t feel right in their body, I believe them 🤷🏻‍♀️

If they tell me they are sure, that’s good enough for me. What more do you want, and why?

Oh, I don't know, the truth? Reason? Reality?

What you are saying is that you have no justification and they have no justification but you are going to accept what they tell you anyway. Why?

Telling that you can only articulate this in terms of feelings and beliefs. Other people prefer to operate on the basis of more objective or material criteria.

Some people believe the earth is flat. I don't, but I believe that their rights are human rights. I believe that they have human rights even though their beliefs are obviously incorrect. I also believe that when I say no the earth is round, they try to convince me with their arguments and evidence rather than just tell me I am flat-phobic.

Out of interest, I don't have a gender identity. Do you believe that I have human rights or do you think that things with vaginas aren't really people unless they're willing to accept gender stereotypes?

Not all TW believe TWAW. One of my oldest friends is trans. She only transitioned in the last couple of years. She doesn’t believe she IS a women- she knows she’s not, and that’s precisely the course of her distress…

*cause

Jeremy Bamber 'believes ' he is innocent of the murder of his family. It doesn't make it so.