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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

1000 replies

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 18:14

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:56

@stolen do you believe telling women that anyone can be a woman if they wish and all the rights women have fought so hard for can be taken away because males say so shows respect for them? Why is respect a one way street?

Porcupineintherough · 24/06/2022 22:56

@StolenCookie how can you identify as a woman if you can't even say what a woman is? What exactly is it trans women are identifying as?

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:56

nolongersurprised · 24/06/2022 22:53

biological FACT, and yet you can only provide a definition of female that excludes these individuals who are medically and scientifically

Dont be daft, they’re not medically/scientifically women. They have testes, no ovaries, no Fallopian tubes, no uterus and XY chromosomes. I have a medical textbook where they are classified under XY Intersex disorders (intersex not DSDs cos I’m old).

individuals with partial (not complete) AIS who do androgenise at puberty are now, under FINA’s new ruling, excluded from competing against women in elite swimming. Athletics seems likely to follow. They have Lia Thomas to thank for that.

And, once again, you’re talking about individuals with DSDs who don’t want to be included in this debate.

You don’t think they are women? So what are they? A third sex? Yet sex is binary is it 🤔

Sn0tnose · 24/06/2022 22:57

I believe their identities deserve respect and their struggles deserve compassion

I think you’ll find that most of us believe this. What I don’t believe is that my compassion for anyone struggling with this should translate to me handing over my rights to a single sex space.

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:57

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:56

You don’t think they are women? So what are they? A third sex? Yet sex is binary is it 🤔

By the way the medical/ scientific community do consider them women.

Doyoumind · 24/06/2022 22:58

This is all just such nonsense isn't it? Is this where progress has led us. None of us would be here if it weren't for the fact there are two sexes. Talk about debating people's existence.

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:59

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:57

By the way the medical/ scientific community do consider them women.

You and your mum is not a medical/scientific community, stop trying to make up definitions to words. We’re all cringing for you here out of sympathy for your idiocy.

onlywhenidream · 24/06/2022 23:00

I am a scientist
I am an active part of the scientific community
TWANW

nolongersurprised · 24/06/2022 23:00

DSDs, by definition, occur when something has gone awry. It doesn’t mean that the person created is not a complete person, but reduced or absent fertility occurs.

It doesn’t change how sex in humans is binary, there are only 2 gametes.

Humans are also bipedal, that some people are born missing a lower limb doesn’t change that.

If I had a DSD I’d be very pissed off by this forced teaming from TRAs. Especially when it meant that sporting opportunities for XY DSD individuals who were competing against women were about to be curtailed.

Tandora · 24/06/2022 23:03

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:59

You and your mum is not a medical/scientific community, stop trying to make up definitions to words. We’re all cringing for you here out of sympathy for your idiocy.

Lol to this.

So to clarify; in your opinion women with AIS are not women? And in your opinion this is the dominant view in the medical /
scientific community?

And if they are not women, what sex are they?

Belovedfool · 24/06/2022 23:04

Nah, mate. I'm on the side of females, 100%. I'm on the side of the women and girls who face casual misogyny and sexism on a daily or even hourly basis. I'm on the side of those who work for a third of the year for free compared to penis owners. I'm on the side of females who now are being told they're "privileged" for their biology. I'm on the side of the girls who now won't use the loo at school because they're forced to share with males. I'm on the side of the female NHS patient raped on a female ward by a male who said he had that magical girly essence.

Be off with you, you wasted.

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2022 23:05

There are essentially 3 definitions of sex: which gametes (eggs/sperm) your body is set up to produce; presence or absence of a Y chromosome; possession of all or most of a distinctive set of bodily characteristics.

They are all binary and there is almost complete overlap.

And the existence of a tiny number of edge cases does NOTHING to suggest that a man who is unambiguously male by all 3 criteria can be somehow be a woman by "gender".

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 23:06

Dunno, you still haven’t told me what a woman is so how do I know if they’re women or not. You’ve been too bust ignoring the wishes of those with DSD who have repeatedly asked not to be dragged into this debate as a ‘gotcha’ as it is demeaning and insulting to them. For someone who wants people to show respect and compassion you and @StolenCookie have shown absolutely none. You are hypocrites who wouldn’t know a fact if it bit you on your backside

nolongersurprised · 24/06/2022 23:09

So to clarify; in your opinion women with AIS are not women? And in your opinion this is the dominant view in the medical /
scientific community?

I just logged into my emedicine account where it states that individuals with AIS are gonadally and chromosomally male. It also states that many individuals, especially with CAIS will have a female gender identity.

Stop appropriating DSDs to make your argument. The medical and scientific tests don’t say what you want them to say.

TidyDancer · 24/06/2022 23:11

I see there's still no answer to the Rachel Dolezal question.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 24/06/2022 23:11

Not everyone has a gender identity.

Everyone has a sex.

Gender identity should not supercede sex. In all areas of life where SEX matters. Sports, prisons, refuges, all these previously single sex female spaces. In fact anywhere where a previously single sex space becomes mixed to the detriment of women and girls.

A transwomen's sex is male. They might not like it, they may desperately wish it weren't so, but that doesn't change reality.

People think they have had full reassignment surgery. No. Self ID has a lot to answer for. The general public think we're talking about Hayley Cropper. But it's Barbie Kardashian. It's Karen White. And thanks to self ID you can't accept one and deny another.

Stonewall and the like would have done well to campaign heavily for third spaces.
Single use enclosed facilities in additon to single sex, safe dedicated prison wings, open sports categories. They had the money. Women would have been behind them all the way. Myself included.

But it was never about safety, equality and recognition. It was about validation. Women being used as validation tools. Human shields. To beat into second place, to usurp and replace in every facet where women have had to spend years, campaigning, fighting, carving out something for our own only for it to be snatched from us just like that.

Women have been lied to. We never won anything, because it's all been taken away from us on nothing more than an indistinguishable feeling from the sex class that have treated us as lesser beings for centuries.

And whilst that's been going on, whilst the handmaids chant their little TWAW and Be Kind mantras, along come the US right and take away their women's bodily autonomy.

Congratafuckinglations.

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 23:15

@MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking that is so true. If I was a cynic, I’d suggest a lot of this TWAW crap was stirred up to distract women from the real problem of the loss of bodily autonomy

Sn0tnose · 24/06/2022 23:17

There are complicated issues, yes, of prisons, refuges etc. But I don’t see why this makes people determined to tell trans women they are not what they feel they are

Do you seriously not get it? Or are you just pretending? You understand that there are ‘complicated issues’ with allowing trans people into single sex spaces, yes? So when a group of people say ‘I feel like a woman, I identify as a woman, I want to be in a woman’s space, a woman’s refuge, a woman’s prison, I want to compete in women’s sporting events’, what reason do women give for saying NO other than ‘I don’t believe that you are a woman, I’m not willing to share my single sex space with you’?

Essentially your argument boils down to telling women to shut up, hand over our rights and be kind so that a tiny group of people don’t get their feelings hurt. I’m struggling to see how you’ve got the brass neck to claim that you’re pro womens rights.

ldontWanna · 24/06/2022 23:22

TidyDancer · 24/06/2022 23:11

I see there's still no answer to the Rachel Dolezal question.

Or the children one.

Tandora · 24/06/2022 23:24

nolongersurprised · 24/06/2022 23:09

So to clarify; in your opinion women with AIS are not women? And in your opinion this is the dominant view in the medical /
scientific community?

I just logged into my emedicine account where it states that individuals with AIS are gonadally and chromosomally male. It also states that many individuals, especially with CAIS will have a female gender identity.

Stop appropriating DSDs to make your argument. The medical and scientific tests don’t say what you want them to say.

“Gonadally and chromosomally male”-
that just proves that sex isn’t singular and unitary doesn’t it? It proves sex isn’t just determined by genetics doesn’t it? People with AIS are not male- The vast majority are assigned female at birth by medics- and given medical interventions as such (hormones and surgeries). If they were believed to be male , then they would be considered trans and not be eligible for such treatments.
doesn’t your little segment also prove that gender identity is a scientifically recognised attribute of a person??

Tandora · 24/06/2022 23:24

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 24/06/2022 23:11

Not everyone has a gender identity.

Everyone has a sex.

Gender identity should not supercede sex. In all areas of life where SEX matters. Sports, prisons, refuges, all these previously single sex female spaces. In fact anywhere where a previously single sex space becomes mixed to the detriment of women and girls.

A transwomen's sex is male. They might not like it, they may desperately wish it weren't so, but that doesn't change reality.

People think they have had full reassignment surgery. No. Self ID has a lot to answer for. The general public think we're talking about Hayley Cropper. But it's Barbie Kardashian. It's Karen White. And thanks to self ID you can't accept one and deny another.

Stonewall and the like would have done well to campaign heavily for third spaces.
Single use enclosed facilities in additon to single sex, safe dedicated prison wings, open sports categories. They had the money. Women would have been behind them all the way. Myself included.

But it was never about safety, equality and recognition. It was about validation. Women being used as validation tools. Human shields. To beat into second place, to usurp and replace in every facet where women have had to spend years, campaigning, fighting, carving out something for our own only for it to be snatched from us just like that.

Women have been lied to. We never won anything, because it's all been taken away from us on nothing more than an indistinguishable feeling from the sex class that have treated us as lesser beings for centuries.

And whilst that's been going on, whilst the handmaids chant their little TWAW and Be Kind mantras, along come the US right and take away their women's bodily autonomy.

Congratafuckinglations.

Everyone has a gender identity

Doyoumind · 24/06/2022 23:25

It's all deeply misogynistic. I suppose you're fully on board with the black pampers and their suck-my-dick placards Tandora?

That poll the other week proved that when it comes to the important things, pre op TW are considered to be men by the majority of people. It's not a niche MN point of view.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 24/06/2022 23:25

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 18:22

Sigh. I really wasn’t trying to be inflammatory.

The main thing I want to know is if anyone here believes, like me, that trans women are women. That’s all.

Yes you were. Else you wouldn't have phrased your voting options like that.

Trans women are trans women. They are not women. I support trans rights. No one has been able to articulate the rights they don't have yet though.

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 23:26

@Tandora no it doesn’t. Go away. You keep using those words. They do not mean what you think they mean.

Tandora · 24/06/2022 23:26

Tandora · 24/06/2022 23:24

“Gonadally and chromosomally male”-
that just proves that sex isn’t singular and unitary doesn’t it? It proves sex isn’t just determined by genetics doesn’t it? People with AIS are not male- The vast majority are assigned female at birth by medics- and given medical interventions as such (hormones and surgeries). If they were believed to be male , then they would be considered trans and not be eligible for such treatments.
doesn’t your little segment also prove that gender identity is a scientifically recognised attribute of a person??

Vast majority with CAIS I should say

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