To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

Gender is a social construct. It is also a very real attribute of a person.
Biological sex is also a social construct , it is also a very real
attribute of a person.

Nope - just pro-women.

Saying men cannot be women is not anti-trans.

Honestly, around and around we go.

And StolenCookie takes us right back to page 1. I wonder why we bother.

Sex is a social construct? Really? How so? So every mammal in the world just automatically decided there were two sexes and one had the capacity to get pregnant and one created sperm. And this would include all mammals human or otherwise. You are indeed a blithering idiot sweetie.

If biological sex is a social construct, why do humans who give birth have XX chromosomes and female anatomy?

So because a very small number of people have disorders where their development hasn't followed the expected path, that means anyone whose sexual development did follow the expected path can claim to be the opposite sex? Cool.

• Gender is a social construct. It is also a very real attribute of a person. Biological sex is also a social construct , it is also a very real attribute of a person.*

Well, 2 out of 4 ain't bad, I suppose.

So what they are women?

im sorry but they have every part in this debate, where you are basing your grounds for trans exclusion on the claim that being female is a simple,
biological FACT, and yet you can only provide a definition of female that excludes these individuals who are medically and scientifically (and personally/ socially and culturally) understood to be female.

Over 700 (!!) votes and over 80% saying trans women are not women

No, humans can’t change sex.

Haven't read the thread yet. Have we had:

TWAW you awful mummy bigots
You need to Be Kind bcos poor TW, they live in such misery
Something something NEMOFISH GOTCHA
No actual def of woman that isn't circular, and in fact no def of what trans is, either, except for 'feels'
Links to wikipedia (titters behind hand)
But LadyBrain

???

Am I near?

Agree - we keep arguing in circles because of this fundamental difference in how we view ‘gender’.

I’m not suggesting trans women don’t have a male sex body. But I believe they identify as women, have a felt sense of being a woman, can change their bodies to reflect their gender identity, and it doesn’t mean they are mentally unwell if they do so. I believe their identities deserve respect and their struggles deserve compassion.

Believing someone feels they are a woman is not the same as believing someone is a actually a woman.

I believe there are genuine trans women that honestly believe they are women. But I also believe that being a genuine trans woman is a psychological disorder.

Presumably there are also many transwomen who don't believe they are in the wrong body but prefer to live as a woman for other reasons

I think in the future it will be more acceptable to live as the opposite gender but there will also be more recognition than truly believing you are in the wrong body is a psychological issue rather than a fact, and the type of allowance that should be made is similar to that for other types of disability or mental health problem.

That's my current thinking anyway

sense of being a woman

What is this, exactly?

The whole basis for your claims are entirely semantic, and yet your definitions are resting on a house of cards.

I did a helpful summary because I’m nice

If biological sex is a social construct, why are there x sperm and y sperm? What is the point of them?

@StolenCookie are people that feel like and identify as children ,children?

And there’s the compassion bit. No. My compassion is for the vulnerable women and girls stuck dealing with this shit cos @Tandora and @stolen want to prioritise male feelings. No. Fuck off. .

@Tandora people with xy chromosomes are not biological women, even if they are phenotypically feminine and have been raised as female.

Trans women are neither genetically or phenotypically women and have not been raised as female. They are men.

"these individuals who are medically and scientifically (and personally/ socially and culturally) understood to be female."

Actually, a lot of websites refer to them as genetic males and do not agree with your premise.
However, because we are human we know that social and cultural upbringing as female from day 1 of life has conditioned them as female. They have no hope to live as male because they are non-responders to testosterone.

Again, NOTHING to do with the trans debate.

Believing that transwomen are not women isn't bigotry or transphobia. It's very possible to respect trans people without having to buy into a fiction akin to a religious belief.

The majority of people aren't stupid. It isn't transphobia.

The definition I was given was xx and large immobile gametes. But there are millions of women who have neither

If an elephant were to be born without a trunk, would it not still be an elephant? I'm sure it would be an elephant, just one born with a genetic deformity. You wouldn't say "you can't say elephants have trunks because some are born without one". I don't know why disorders or medical issues such as infertility disprove the definition. It means that barring any medical issues, that is what they are.

Humans have 46 chromosomes.
"You can't say that because people with Down's Syndrome have 47, so are they not human?"
Of course they are, humans with a medical problem.

biological FACT, and yet you can only provide a definition of female that excludes these individuals who are medically and scientifically

Dont be daft, they’re not medically/scientifically women. They have testes, no ovaries, no Fallopian tubes, no uterus and XY chromosomes. I have a medical textbook where they are classified under XY Intersex disorders (intersex not DSDs cos I’m old).

individuals with partial (not complete) AIS who do androgenise at puberty are now, under FINA’s new ruling, excluded from competing against women in elite swimming. Athletics seems likely to follow. They have Lia Thomas to thank for that.

And, once again, you’re talking about individuals with DSDs who don’t want to be included in this debate.

You believe that telling trans people their identities are a ‘fiction’ constitutes respect for them?

Wow ok well this is a very niche /
fringe/ radical definition of biological woman that certainly is NOT upheld by consensus in the medical/ scientific community.
what basis do you have for saying that chromosomes are the deciding factor (chromosomes themselves of course not always being binary in any case).