Archie Battersbee case

[whynotwhatknot]

I was just wondering why we're not allowed to post about this case-the deletion message mentioned it was ongoing so wouldnt be fair to the family

Charlie gards case was on going and there was numerous threads about it

Anyway if this stands maybe we can discuss

Where is the picture of the eye? I can’t see it

His passing will be classed as a sudden/unexplained/unexpected death (can't remember rhe exact legal wording) due to his age and the circumstances so will be referred to the coroner for investigation and an inquest.

It's on the Facebook account, MinnieGirl

There's also something about an electrical "stimulator" machine - forgive me, I don't know the technical name - which flexes muscles when switched on (though I've no idea if it would produce the effect on someone actually dead)
If it does, I'm only waiting for the Army to start insisting Archie's recovering even more movement

Like an EMS machine? Those ones that enable athletes to recover faster and for you to tone your waist whilst sitting around?

I think they work by stimulating the motor nerves to contract a muscle/muscle groups.

They won’t work on a dead person

*they don’t actually tone your waist, btw. They were trendy for a while

I think they work by stimulating the motor nerves to contract a muscle/muscle groups
They won’t work on a dead person

Ah, fair enough; I didn't think it likely, but wasn't sure
And it didn't look so much like a "toning" machine, more the sort of thing they used on my pal at the hospital when she'd broken her wrist, which was attached higher up her arm and caused the fingers to curl in response if that makes sense?

Surely Hollie can see the ventilator doing all the work, that he is making zero effort to breathe, not triggering the vent at all.

The vents we use even show what % effort the patient is making. I find it really useful to show relatives that.

I'm pretty sure they would still work on someone who is brain stem dead, as the muscle is still living tissue (like his organs), due to the interventions he's on.

It's more that there's no point in attempting rehab as sadly he won't make a recovery anyway.

I really feel for the HCPs who are going to need to manage the excitement/hope of the family if they do get access to this kind of equipment.

It's more that there's no point in attempting rehab as sadly he won't make a recovery anyway

Yes, I believe most of us get that, though how we'd react in the parents' desperate position is harder to say. That said, tragically young people die every day and we rarely hear of cases like this, which may be no bad thing

I just worry there may be no point at all at which the family accept the reality, which I guess is why the court system is there - though of course Archie may pass naturally in the meantime since there's only so much their input can do

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Yup, I was just pointing out that such a device will work on someone who is brainstem dead. Which will cause much confusions, hope, and upset.

Yes, it's precisely the "confusions, hope, and upset" I was thinking of, foliageeverywhere. Right now it's said nobody but Archie's mum has witnessed his alleged movements, but it doesn't take a genius to see how the online idiots would respond - and never mind that it would only be produced by a machine

There has been a lot of talk about the peripheral nerve testing as part of the brain stem death testing. The NHS website defines the criteria here:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-death/diagnosis/

The peripheral nerve test that I think is being referred to is called a somatosensory evoked potential - it's often used in ITU to help with prognostication, particularly after an out of hospital cardiac arrest. I won't comment any further as I don't have enough knowledge but I wondered if it would help anyone who wanted to find out more about that nerve test.

I wish I could edit my post! SSEP is not included in the list that is linked, the list linked is pretty much all clinical evaluations that can be performed in the ITU setting without the need to transport the patient (and the risks associated). SSEPs can be performed at the bedside, as can EEG and without reading the judges full transcript myself I strongly think that this is the test being referred to.

Yup, I was just pointing out that such a device will work on someone who is brainstem dead. Which will cause much confusions, hope, and upset

But if it is the one that works by stimulating nerves to move muscles it won’t work on Archie, because nerve conduction tests didn’t provoke a response.

Having said that, I don’t know what the device is.

Jahi case

This is the Jahi McMath case, where a 13 year old was declared brain stem dead after catastrophic blood loss after ENT surgery.

Whats interesting is that there are a few states in the US where a brain stem patient does not have to come off a ventilator if it violates their religious beliefs.

Im sure this is what the Christian legal group is working towards, with the “best interests” appeal.

It’s a long read and a bit distressing. She was on a ventilator for 5 years and her periods started during it. She also had some reflexic spinal movements during the motor part of the brain stem death test and the puberty progression meant that there must have been some residual hormone function, and clearly didn’t have diabetes insipidus as that wouldn’t t be able to be managed at home as well.

Posted before I had finished:

Also, Jahi, like Archie, helpfully had a conversation before their medical incident where they stated they’d want to remain on a ventilator.

The operation and initial ICU stay was in California where the law says someone can only stay on a ventilator a few days after a brain stem death diagnosis, so they moved her to New Jersey where the law allows for long-term ventilation on religious grounds.

Archie’s body is much sicker than hers, though, he wouldn’t be able to be moved. Although he was presumably without oxygen for longer, given his arrest was out of hospital.

yes they have different laws in different states thank god we dont

imagine keeping someone on a ventilator for years its awful

The Jahi case is terrible. She was actively bleeding and no one did anything about it. Tonsil bleeds are an emergency situation.

Also, Jahi, like Archie, helpfully had a conversation before their medical incident where they stated they’d want to remain on a ventilator.

@nolongersurprised

This case has nudged me to have this conversation with my own children (teenagers, so not overly traumatic) and my best friend, so now we are all aware of each others wishes in the unlikely event any of us are in this situation. Which is definitely a positive thing.

And there was allegations of her family going against medical advice when she was in recovery post op.

Apparently Jahi was fed bits of solid food that was brought in by the family which resulted in choking. It’s reported that a family member used a suction catheter on her which resulted in dislodging wound site clots and a massive haemorrhage.

Despite being initially reported as a routine tonsillectomy gone wrong (by the family) it was actually quite a complex (and some state unnecessary) operation removing tonsils, adenoids, soft palate and surrounding tissue.

Jahi’s treatment plan for sleep apnoea seemed to go from 0 to 100 ignoring basic, less invasive management such as weight loss and cpap usage.

The US is obviously a massively different beast when it comes down to health care, ethics, legislation and laws but Jahi’s case had a lot of similarities (including parental behaviour and dynamics and questioning of how the child actually came to suffer the devastating damage to their brain).

And there were* (not was!) sorry!

The Digital for All page is informative, but some of the followers are starting to act a bit like the army on the other page. When you try to point out they are incorrect on something - you get told you are wrong and part of the Army. Makes the page less credible if you can point out errors.

*can’t