Archie Battersbee case

[whynotwhatknot]

I was just wondering why we're not allowed to post about this case-the deletion message mentioned it was ongoing so wouldnt be fair to the family

Charlie gards case was on going and there was numerous threads about it

Anyway if this stands maybe we can discuss

Well here we are further down the road into a new month

Archie will have deteriorated further since the tests which were detailed in court

What will it take for the family to see this for what it is now.

would it be possible to have it as an alternative? So that either the current method OR the MR angiogram is used?

I think the issue with that is that medicine is becoming more and more defensive, and a more invasive, expensive test could easily creep into “best practice” meaning that in peripheral hospitals patients would have to be transported out to then be declared dead.

To some extent I think it’s moot, in that imaging and blood flow studies are frequently done now in patients with acute brain injuries, in hospitals that have that capacity. They are used already to guide decision making.

The proportion of families who, after being shown Archie’s scans, with his rotting brain falling into his spine and say, “Let’s keep going” is very very small. Hollie’s reaction to the scans was to deny they were Archie’s, This isn’t an usual case clinically, but the family’s response is atypical. I don’t think new law needs to be created to accommodate their unusual grief reaction.

sorry, not an unusual* case clinically

There is a similar case that was heard in NI recently under the Bailii judgements. It was an interesting read.

Sorry to ask probably a obvious question. So the best intrest hearing.. when it goes back to court in a few weeks is a case of deciding wherever or not its in Archie's best intrest to keep him on life support or is there more to it then that?

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so sorry if this has been discussed (I have read the other thread and was on the deleted one)

Having read the Judgement, the Judge just got completely carried away. She didn't need to explore whether AB is brain stem dead, declare him dead on a particular date etc. She especially didn't need to do this once it was clear the Code of Practice guidelines to establish brain stem death couldn't be completed.

The application was brought under the Children Act and the paramount consideration in that legislation is whether any Order is in the child's best interests. The question surely should be "knowing what we know, is it in this child's best interests to receive continuing medical intervention?" The Judge can then use the legislation to come to an answer balancing the medical information / AB religion / parents views / Guardians views etc

I haven't seen the CoA Judgement (so I could be way off mark!!) has it been released yet and does anyone have a link?

I just looked at the facebook group and his mum is posting about all the things she's going to try with him today, leading to lots of of army members saying they know today is the day he'll wake up. I really feel for her.

These posts are the ones I find so awful.

I can’t help but wonder if they genuinely, truly do think he’s going to wake up and be ok or whether they’re just saying it for effect whilst they get carried away with the Army and their collective beliefs.

I just can’t fathom how people can actually think he’s going to wake up?

I read their posts and I just don’t understand it.

I’ve just seen a photo/post that his mum has added regarding him ‘looking’ at his teddy.

She basically put up a photo of his slightly open eye which has a teddy placed next to it.

The eye is staring, completely lifeless with a huge pupil and the image is just awful.

Of course the Army are saying how amazing it is that he’s looking at his Teddy and congratulating him on how wonderful he’s doing followed by all the “come on Archie it’s time to wake up now” cheers.

I think a lot of them believe it...its on other places too when there's been articles about it. I dont think they realise the extent but if the family are playing it all down then no wonder.

Have just seen that. It's terrifying. Pupils dilated and fixed...totally lifeless. Awful.

I don't know what the answer is, but 3 times now in recent memory "armies" have appeared. I am 100% behind supporting the family, it must be incredibly painful for them. But these groups seem to go much further than this. Its very concerning.

I've seen some horrific things in my time and that video is right up there amongst them.

I feel awful for saying it and I can't imagine the pain they're going through but what is wrong with his family!? First the nappy photo, then all the online stuff with them harassing people, and now this? Can they not just give him his privacy and dignity without drumming up this circus?

I just looked at the facebook group and his mum is posting about all the things she's going to try with him today, leading to lots of of army members saying they know today is the day he'll wake up. I really feel for her.

And when, inevitably, today is not the day he wakes up, they will blame it on more plotting by the hospital.

Am imagining the headlines now when Archie's body does eventually give out. The army and his family are going to pin it all on the hospital.

its so difficult, were it my child lying there with no hope of recovery, I hope I would have the strength to do what’s best for them and not just keep them ventilated because I couldn’t bear to let them go (absolutely understandable, I do have huge empathy for Archie’s mother in this terrible situation).
But today there are 204 acutely unwell children lying in hospital who DO have a chance to survive and thrive if only they get the chance of an organ donation in time. If only, once it was clear that poor, poor Archie was not going to recover, his family could have taken that final step. 6 children could now be well on the road to recovery with a chance of a happy healthy future and what a legacy that could have been for Archie, one which hopefully could have brought comfort to his family in the years to come.

I just looked at the facebook group and his mum is posting about all the things she's going to try with him today, leading to lots of of army members saying they know today is the day he'll wake up. I really feel for her.

They say this every single day, multiple times a day, and even though it doesn’t happen they still say it the next day too.

Their attitude isn’t normal, it’s like they’re enjoying the drama, or enjoying being part of ‘something’. I honestly don’t understand their mindset.

So the best intrest hearing.. when it goes back to court in a few weeks is a case of deciding wherever or not its in Archie's best intrest to keep him on life support or is there more to it then that?

I don’t know, we’ll have to wait for the judgment. I was hoping it would just be “best interests” and not any other legal wrangle and they could let him go. Others have said that there are still issues up in the air, like brain stem death testing that the appeal was originally to be about.

Maybe it’ll open with best interests and then everything else will be tied up in one fell swoop. I hope so.

I posted this last night (quoting myself, lol)
The proportion of families who, after being shown Archie’s scans, with his rotting brain falling into his spine and say, “Let’s keep going” is very very small. Hollie’s reaction to the scans was to deny they were Archie’s, This isn’t an usual case clinically, but the family’s response is atypical. I don’t think new law needs to be created to accommodate their unusual grief reaction

After looking at that video of his dead eye and Hollie saying he is “looking” - surely she’s not mentally well at the moment? I’m not being derogatory, I would possibly be the same if my son died, especially in those circumstances but that is the eye of a dead person.

My visceral distaste for all of this is that culturally, we don’t ventilate corpses. We bury or cremate them and have a funeral/commutative service.

*commemorative

@nolongersurprised

The trouble is she has literally thousands of people agreeing with her and enabling this - including people who are lawyers and doctors. I think it's something like 40k that has been raised by people convinced he has a chance of survival.

I do wonder if there's anyone in her family trying to reason with her.

Wonder what the reaction would be if it was posted the family accepts the next outcome if doesn't go in their favour...its just sad the he'll open his eyes posts and how when he does he'll look back and read all this..wonder if its cause people like to be apart of something and if he did happen to make it then they could take credit? Or feel they played a part somehow. Its odd. There's support then there's that.

Seen posts already about the Judge being same as Alfie Evans..hasn't gone down well.

The trouble is she has literally thousands of people agreeing with her and enabling this -

Some people love a big of medical drama though and the narrative of a mother fighting the system for her boy she “knows it’s still in there”. They’ll drift away when it’s over.

There’s a human, visceral response to seeing that eye though. If she can look at his eyes like that, his unmoving body, images of his necrotic, dropping off brain and project life onto that then she can’t be well.

The BBC recently reported that she came home and found him on the floor which is different to what she originally said about her being at home with him and mucking about with a rabbit. Certainly after a trauma people’s minds can protect them from the reality and I can’t imagine the shock of coming home and finding your son like that.

And shame on the people who are enabling it all, but grief vultures have always existed.

One thing I am curious about to read in the CA judgement-maybe someone with a legal background could clarify for me-if the original high court judge has declared AB dead and CA make no comment on this and refer back to best interests, does this leave AB in a legal "no mans land" in terms of a further ruling on best interests?

Does someone have to be deemed alive for best interests to apply?

I have said this repeatedly now, but I think this case indicates the need for a revision of the criteria for brain stem death. There needs to be a pathway for determining brain stem death IF peripheral nerve testing cannot be carried out. It would not alter the current parameters (so the current standard would srill be the first choice for diagnosing brain stem death), but clearly there needs to be a "plan b".

There needs to be a pathway for determining brain stem death IF peripheral nerve testing cannot be carried out

Peripheral nerve conduction studies aren’t usually done before testing motor function for brain death though. And there was no suggestion Archie had a motor nerve neuropathy before the incident. There would be no reason to test motor nerve electrical activity in someone who was healthy and didn’t have muscular weakness before hand.

My feeling is that the hospital were doing every single test possible to cover all potential legal issues raised, then tested themselves into a bit of a corner.

The protocols just emphasise that enough time needs to have passed to ensure sedating and paralysing drugs are well gone.

Who are lose Dignity For All people that keep being mentioned?

On the “opening his eyes post” I’ve just seen one woman comment and say “My guess is he’ll be awake and read to see his friends by the Summer holidays” with lots of smiles and Purple Heart emojis.

Are people really so stupid?!

I thought peripheral nerve testing was a pre qualifying test for brain stem death?