To think these comments are a bit uneducated/weird?

[savebuckbeak]

I expect I'll probably get slated for this, but here goes...

I recently started dating someone. Very nice guy, polite, kind, seems intelligent (went to a Ivy League university in the US), American but lived in the UK for a short while. Sometimes when we're talking I feel like some of the things he says, especially if we're discussing politics/world affairs, just sound a bit...odd. He's clearly very highly educated, which is what surprises me more, but maybe he's just a bit naive? It's made me feel like I can't really converse with him on the same level, but he's so great in other ways that I'd feel reluctant to let him go. Some examples:

When talking about Ireland..."I'm really hoping for Irish reunification". When I asked why and tell him that the majority of N.Irish citizens want to stay part of the UK, he says "it'd be cool to have it just as one island, particularly because of how downtrodden the Irish have been historically". Like sure, I get that, but if N.Ireland want to stay in the UK, then...?!

When talking about Priti Patel's Rwanda policy, he says "that would never fly in the US. There'd be protests all over the country." UMMMMM. Really?!?!?!? In America, where race relations and immigration rhetoric is arguably even worse? Is he suggesting that the US is some enlightened land? I questioned him on this, and he said "but there were loads of protests about the Iraq war!" Ummmm yes there were, but that's a different issue. The majority of people probably appreciated that protesting against a foreign war, where US national security is directly at stake, is worth it. But for a couple thousand migrants that get shipped off somewhere far away - that's not something (sadly) the average person would get up in arms about in the same way.

Anyway, there've been various different comments like this, and it surprises me because he seems to read a lot and I initially thought he was quite switched on, but I feel a bit confused now.

That's why you need to probe this guy, exactly what countries did he study? A Harvard degree would impress most people and I guess you've never been there so it's a harder lie to see through.

Good luck and I hope you get the answers you need.

I think most Irish people do care about Northern Ireland. I certainly do and RTÉ tend to be very inclusive with the likes of Home of the Year and Supergarden having Northern Irish participants. Ireland pays for Northern Irish students to participate in the Erasmus programme since Brexit regardless of their background. Northern Irish news is all over our media.

Surfbox, you're a bit too fond of saying things without basing them on some kind of evidence.

So, what is your evidence that supports your statement, particularly the one regarding GB attitudes towards Northern Ireland?

By evidence, I don't mean anecdotal.

Regarding this bit "To be clear, the Republic of Ireland (or its predecessor the Irish Free State) did not exist at the point that Northern Ireland was created", the predecessor state for both was Southern Ireland - as shortlived as it was.

As the GFA states, any prospect of reunification is subject (that's the word it uses) to the consent of Northern Ireland's people. This explains the focus being on Northern Ireland itself.

The issue of Northern Ireland voting yes and the Republic of Ireland voting no isn't acknowledged as a possibility in the GFA. So, it has no set of parameters relating to that even though support in the Republic is very much conditional on the tax level and extent of change required. There is little in the way of flexibility on the issue it is not a viable prospect for quite some time. Not least because Nationalism and Republicanism hasn't experienced any real growth in 24 years.

But the middle ground and a Northern Irish group certainly has grown. Pretty impressively. A pro-NI group, essentially. Somewhat paradoxically, this also ensures the focus is on Northern Ireland itself.

As the GFA states, any prospect of reunification is subject (that's the word it uses) to the consent of Northern Ireland's people. This explains the focus being on Northern Ireland itself. The issue of Northern Ireland voting yes and the Republic of Ireland voting no isn't acknowledged as a possibility in the GFA.

Doesn't it state that consent must be 'freely and concurrently given' by both NI and ROI?

most of British people on the mainland couldn't give 2 fucks about NI,
Agreèd.
the same can be said for most people in the Republic of Ireland in that they don't care.
Certainly not.
Leo Varadkar was Taoiseach during the Brexit negotiations, he supported the people from NI reminding the UK repeatedly of the damage they were causing to the GFA.
The UK was prepared to throw NI under a bus.

Irish people have strong memories and many have great grandparents who fought the British.

Every family sat for the 6 o clock rte news
with sadness while the troubles raged when I was a child.

There is a connection rooted between ROI and NI and the Scottish too.
Granted everyone fears repercussions from the loyalists so if it ever happened it is important both sides are happy with any changes.
Chance of both side's ever agreeing is another thing.

Liz Truss morphing into Maggie Thatcher scares me.

Derry girls Michelle done an interesting program on Derry/Londonderry.

Certainly not.
Leo Varadkar was Taoiseach during the Brexit negotiations, he supported the people from NI reminding the UK repeatedly of the damage they were causing to the GFA.
The UK was prepared to throw NI under a bus.

Varadkar doesn't represent the general mentality of the Irish, 30 years ago people around the Republic border counties cared but since the troubles died down alot of them couldn't give 2 fucks about Northern Ireland and the younger generation in Ireland [those under 30] couldn't give 2 shits.

If you go to Dublin and down the country many of them are like the English in that they are ignornant to NI. Many I chatted to thought Donegal was part of NI and many openly said they knew little about Northern Ireland or cared. Irish people only care about Brexit and NI if it means trade is hit or that they can't travel freely across the country,m that doesn't mean they actually care about Northern Ireland though or a united Ireland.

Irish people have strong memories and many have great grandparents who fought the British

Yea older generations but again they are dying out. My parents are both 70s and from Donegal and don't care, I grew up there myself-the general mentality around here these days is complete indifference.

So, what is your evidence that supports your statement, particularly the one regarding GB attitudes towards Northern Ireland

I lived in England for a decade, not once did I hear any person bring up NI. Here is a board mostly with British people on the mainland and I'd say vast majority couldn't care either and couldn't give 2 hoots if NI was handed back tomorrow and why should they?
Ofcourse they'd care if it meant their prices increased or something affected them directly but that's a totally different situation. The same goes for much of the Republic, unless prices were changed nobody really cares.

The people that mostly care would live in Northern Ireland.

and RTÉ tend to be very inclusive with the likes of Home of the Year and Supergarden having Northern Irish participants. Ireland pays for Northern Irish students to participate in the Erasmus programme since Brexit regardless of their background. Northern Irish news is all over our media

Again that doesn't equate to any way that Irish people care about NI. We buy in American and US tv exports, we hear alot of international news all over our media etc but that doesn't mean Irish people in general care.

Government efforts do not always reflects the wants or care of the people; Ireland spend nearly a billion on the Irish language every year and yet the vast majority of the country can't speak it anywhere near a fluent level and many couldn't give a fuck about it or had any interest in it at school. If they did why can nobody speak it after 13 years of learning it?

@SurfBox On the other hand there are lots of people like me who do value the Irish language even though they don't speak it well. Lots of people are sending their children to Gaelscoileanna now in the hope that they'll get a better grasp of it than they themselves did.

I'm surprised to hear of Irish people who don't realise Donegal is a part of ROI tbh. Seems like our schools are having problems with more than the teaching of Irish.

And I do think it's fair to say that people in ROI have, in general, a better grasp of the history and politics of NI than do people in England, Scotland or Wales. Obviously people in NI are the experts. And many people do care.

I'm surprised to hear of Irish people who don't realise Donegal is a part of ROI tbh. Seems like our schools are having problems with more than the teaching of Irish

I'd say you'd have many Irish people especially under 35 who wouldn't be able to name the 6 counties or even know how many counties they are. I've met people too at University in Dublin who thought Monaghan was part of the North, it's much more common than you'd think.

Also the North is a lot less in the media since the troubles died down after the GFA in 98, yes it's still in the media but it's a lot less sensational news these days than it was. I also don't get why people here think that because NI features in the media people know its history etc.

Ukraine/ Russia is hot in the media and yet many people have little idea what's causing it. Likewise the Iraq war against America was big yrs ago and many knew or cared little.

On the other hand there are lots of people like me who do value the Irish language even though they don't speak it well. Lots of people are sending their children to Gaelscoileanna now in the hope that they'll get a better grasp of it than they themselves did

People were saying that when I was at primary school in the 90s and every parent was sending their kids to gaeltachts but not 1 bit of difference did it make. I see plenty who are all patriotic about keeping Irish but do it through lip service only and make no effort to learn it themselves or had any interest at it during school-it's hypocritical shit and to say it's worth the billion we pay every year is delusional.

Could be better much spent on mental health etc as the mental health we have is shite and you can wait over a year for counseling if you check due to lack of funding. Keep it in schools by all means but make it optional.

@SurfBox There's a huge difference between being educated through the medium of Irish for 8 years, or 14 years, and going to the Gaeltacht for a few weeks in the summer for a year or two.

I disagree that having an interest in Irish, or wanting to preserve it, is 'hypocritical shit' if you're not a fluent speaker.
Goes without saying that our health service/mental health services need huge improvement and investment too, no argument there.

Demographics can change over time and how long will it be before the majority that wants to stay in the Union becomes a minority, based on current trends?

If the 6 counties were each given the chance to opt out, what do you think would be the case for County Fermanagh?

Love this. I wish we had a "like" button on Mumsnet!

I had the British police, courts and prisons Americansplained to me the other day. I was trying very hard not to roll my eyes.

Again that doesn't equate to any way that Irish people care about NI.
100,000's Irish people care about NI it is part of their identity but hey hoy you have all the facts.

What's your concern OP?
That he's not as intelligent as his qualifications initially led you to believe?
That he's actually lying about his qualifications?
That your cultural differences in mindset are going to prove more of an issue than you thought?
That his opinions are incompatible with yours?

Education and intelligence aren't the same thing. Sure, there's a broad correlation, but plenty of people with degrees aren't particularly big thinkers, while plenty without are. Why not throw some extra information into the conversation and discuss it. Evolve your conversations. Or discuss something he does know about. That will tell you if he's your 'intellectual equal'.

you go to Dublin and down the country many of them are like the English in that they are ignornant to NI.
Definitely not.
Country people are patriotic like many Irish people I'd find it very hard to believe.
Irish patriotic music is very popular in small town country bars.
I love a good night out listening to the music.

I disagree that having an interest in Irish, or wanting to preserve it, is 'hypocritical shit' if you're not a fluent speaker

I said them having no interest or making no effort to learn it themselves is hypocritical whilst saying we need to maintain it. I think people just expect the failures of every other generation to learn it or have an interest in it and that it will change witrh the next generation but it generally doesn't. If people could see where the cash could be spend on they'd spoon lose their patriotic lip service.

The houses are all falling down in the country and it's set to cost billions for example and so many are saying 'we cannot afford the taxpayer to pay'. Yet in the same breath they support the funding of a language that is as good as dead.

*Demographics can change over time and how long will it be before the majority that wants to stay in the Union becomes a minority, based on current trends?

If the 6 counties were each given the chance to opt out, what do you think would be the case for County Fermanagh*

until there is a whole referendum done in ni we can't truly know what the majority want.

100,000's Irish people care about NI it is part of their identity but hey hoy you have all the facts

ok then can you support your facts with this?

Definitely not.
Country people are patriotic like many Irish people I'd find it very hard to believe.
Irish patriotic music is very popular in small town country bars.
I love a good night out listening to the music

At a most alot of Irish people know the 6 counties belong to the UK and that's it. They wouldn't know the in depth history.

Irish patriotic music is very popular in small town country bars

Um ok, how on earth does your view on that support the fact that the Irish want a united Ireland? I think the majority of us just want a peaceful life and don't even consider it anymore. Most Irish people say ''we couldn't afford them now anyways'',-again a view that has no solid evidence behind it yet a dogma that seems to be the prevalent thought.

@SurfBox What you actually said was those who had no interest in Irish at school or who make no attempt to learn it later are hypocrites if they think the language important.

I think this reasonated with me as I had no particular interest in Irish at school. Found it difficult...exam pressure etc...I would have let it go then, and gladly. It's only now when I'm older and hopefully wiser that I see its value. And luckily more children have the opportunity to become fluent now than when I was a child.

At a most alot of Irish people know the 6 counties belong to the UK and that's it. They wouldn't know the in depth history.
Maybe the people who you've had this conversation with are a bit dim.

I would have let it go then, and gladly. It's only now when I'm older and hopefully wiser that I see its value

yes but this is the consensus yet I bet you still will make no effort to learn it but expect others to. People don't like learning it because learning is hard work in reality and not often not particularly interesting yet they still cling to this romanticized notion.