Page 3 | To think these comments are a bit uneducated/weird?

savebuckbeak · 2022-06-20T11:03:57+00:00

I expect I'll probably get slated for this, but here goes... I recently started dating someone. Very nice guy, polite, kind, seems intelligent (went to a Ivy League university in the US), American but lived in the UK for a short while. Sometimes when we're talking I feel like some of the things he says, especially if we're discussing politics/world affairs, just sound a bit...odd. He's clearly very highly educated, which is what surprises me more, but maybe he's just a bit naive? It's made me feel like I can't really converse with him on the same level, but he's so great in other ways that I'd feel reluctant to let him go. Some examples: When talking about Ireland..."I'm really hoping for Irish reunification". When I asked why and tell him that the majority of N.Irish citizens want to stay part of the UK, he says "it'd be cool to have it just as one island, particularly because of how downtrodden the Irish have been historically". Like sure, I get that, but if N.Ireland want to stay in the UK, then...?! When talking about Priti Patel's Rwanda policy, he says "that would never fly in the US. There'd be protests all over the country." UMMMMM. Really?!?!?!? In America, where race relations and immigration rhetoric is arguably even worse? Is he suggesting that the US is some enlightened land? I questioned him on this, and he said "but there were loads of protests about the Iraq war!" Ummmm yes there were, but that's a different issue. The majority of people probably appreciated that protesting against a foreign war, where US national security is directly at stake, is worth it. But for a couple thousand migrants that get shipped off somewhere far away - that's not something (sadly) the average person would get up in arms about in the same way. Anyway, there've been various different comments like this, and it surprises me because he seems to read a lot and I initially thought he was quite switched on, but I feel a bit confused now.

Oioicaptain · 21/06/2022 16:55

I think that @clumpingBambooIsALie is spot on.

PupInAPram · 21/06/2022 16:58

English people often know very little about Irish history. Surely demographic trends suggest a united Ireland is likely sooner or later?

Critiquelist · 21/06/2022 16:59

I think it’s a bit much to critique his knowledge of Northern Ireland given so few people in the U.K. have any clue about Irish history and how Ireland was treated @savebuckbeak

Butchyrestingface · 21/06/2022 16:59

Do you have a particularly nuanced understanding of US politics and history yourself, OP?

SausageAndCash · 21/06/2022 17:00

I’m English and whilst appreciating the views of current NI citizens find it hard to defend the colonial oppression of the Irish as a reason to continue a divided Ireland.

TeaKlaxon · 21/06/2022 17:00

Do you think it’s odd that your response to his view on Northern Ireland was to rely on the fact that a majority do not (currently) support unification?

Generally if I express an opinion and someone’s only response is that a majority disagree, I’d think they’re either not interested or not capable of discussing the substantive merits of the issue. Of course Irish unification cannot happen unless and until a majority in NI want it to, but that doesn’t stop about 40%+ of people in NI thinking it would be a good idea.

Saying ‘I support Irish unification isn’t the same as ‘I think it should happen regardless of what the people of NI believe’. It means I think it’s a good idea and if I had a vote would support it.

I wonder if he’s on a forum somewhere saying ‘I went on a date with this great woman but when I said I supported Irish unification, all she could say in response was that a majority in NI don’t agree’!

Muppetryofthepenis · 21/06/2022 17:04

Not sure how his idea about Ireland is too off the mark? Sinn Fein is now the most popular party in it. Partition was clearly going to end at some point.

Regularsizedrudy · 21/06/2022 17:09

This is a glib response and for sure I’ll get flamed but I find lots of Americans are very stupid, especially about world events. They have been raised being told the US is always right and the centre of the universe.

GCRich · 21/06/2022 17:09

Sharrowgirl · 21/06/2022 13:48

I don’t think his comments are weird or naive. He just has different opinions to you. Plus he’s from a different country so will naturally have had his views shaped by different media, society and culture.

No, I think his comments are ignorant and naive.

The idea that the UK is some island who hates foreigners and sends them to Rwanda whereas the US has amazing race relations and no racists who had immigrants.

The idea that you can just re-unify a country and everything will be fine.

Now if he's a bit ignorant and naive but ackowledges and tries to learn then that's fine. If he think he is entitled to confidently express an opinion based on a complete lack of knowledge of Irish history, or on the back of a belief that the USA love immigrants and would never have racist immigration policies (Trump anyone?) then he's a bit of a knob.

Henerlo · 21/06/2022 17:10

You're from different cultures and neither of you know as much about the other's as you do about your own. Quite possibly he'd find any views you have about eg Mexico or white survivalists lacking in in depth knowledge. That's pretty normal when you're with someone from a different country. They'll have a different perspective. Hopefully in addition he has some good features and some interesting things to say !

GarrettAMorgan · 21/06/2022 17:17

EmilyBolton · 21/06/2022 15:44

I worked for a US company for over 30 years, and visited a lot for work in various states, worked with a lot of American colleagues and bosses
my view is that American are very inward looking in their knowledge and views of world history, geograpghy and politics. That’s not surprising given it’s size, and the main focus being on their neighbouring counties . Think about it, America has never”ruled” or governed another country. Yes they’ve been occupiers for short periods of some countries with national governments still in power ( eg afghan, Iraq, vietnam), but they’ve not “ owned” other counties as such. Now think of uk background- at one time 25% of the worlds population for ruled by the British empire and by the crown. Similarly, france. Spain, Portugal all had empires covering probably a lot of remaining parts of the world. Trade was extensive, travel was extensive. Even relatively middle class jobs could mean whole families shipping out to live abroad. The working class were involved in trade coming in right across the world - liverpool and Bristol were once the biggest trading ports in the world. Our culture has been outward looking for centuries, as has most of Europe.

We are also geographically very close to a lot of counties all with distinct cultures and languages … in uk particularly most people travel to other countries seeking sun. the majority of people in USA will never travel outside USA. Majority do not have passports. A lot will not even travel outside their state- but USA states are huge…in USA people use flights like buses to travel to see friends just because of the sheer distances. Whilst many states have ethnic diversity, it is mostly black American or Hispanic or Mexican. There is not the huge melting pot of cultures in small cities that you get in Europe.

what Americans are taught in schools is mostly focused on USA. European history is brief and focuses on routes of American culture. Geography tends to focus on American and physical aspects without knowing countries etc..but hey…how many of us know all the US states and their capitals. There is only so much anyone can learn and retain as knowledge.

so, to many Europeans, Americans can come across as uneducated..they’re not but their knowledge of the world outside USA tends to be picked up form their somewhat dodgy press outlets and therefore their knowledge is skewed towards places in crisis. Hence why they believed a few years back that Birmingham was virtually a Islamic state or whatever it was 🤦‍♀️

I think you can then add to that , most Americans are conservative with small c compared with Europeans. Things we think of as middle or right wing politics are seen as socialism virtually. And most American cannot stand the very idea of anything vaguely smelling of socialism. Hence why there is such resistance to a public funded health care system, or pretty much anything publicly funded ( maternity leave, workers rights , social housing). The amercian dream is the self made man, and that everything is possible if you put effort and hard work in. You are the author of your own fortunes and misfortunes. And then you top it off with the cherry of patriotism.. Americans do not diss their country in any shape or form. They big it up. It is the best country in the world, the best democracy ..this is an almost cult like belief. Their lack of knowledge of other cultures allows this to prevail widely and unchallenged.

Hence why my ex boss, an educated women , earning big bucks and of mature years, who had actually travelled extensively all over the world , once said that USA had created the first democracy in the world and it was the model all others countries wanted to follow and eminate. Not one person in the room was disagreed. Until I gently said” er, where does the world democracy come from? Would that be Greek? “ 🤦‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️

FFS. I mean, of course many, many Americans critique their own country and in my opinion are much more thorough and persistent in this than the educated middle class in the UK who seem very complacent about examining their received ideas about Britain’s history and the current class system.

I’ve never had a man mansplain to me one hundredth of the amount I’ve been Britsplained to about the US by the women of Mumsnet.

TeaKlaxon · 21/06/2022 17:17

I know many English people who are the same about Northern Ireland. Americans are least have the excuse of it not being their country.

ScaredAdopter · 21/06/2022 17:29

Saying Irish unity would be a good thing isn’t the same as saying there would be no issues to work through with it.

Do you think the 40% or 45% of people in Northern Ireland who agree with him are also ‘ignorant and naive’.

SnipSnipMrBurgess · 21/06/2022 17:36

EmilyBolton · 21/06/2022 15:44

I worked for a US company for over 30 years, and visited a lot for work in various states, worked with a lot of American colleagues and bosses
my view is that American are very inward looking in their knowledge and views of world history, geograpghy and politics. That’s not surprising given it’s size, and the main focus being on their neighbouring counties . Think about it, America has never”ruled” or governed another country. Yes they’ve been occupiers for short periods of some countries with national governments still in power ( eg afghan, Iraq, vietnam), but they’ve not “ owned” other counties as such. Now think of uk background- at one time 25% of the worlds population for ruled by the British empire and by the crown. Similarly, france. Spain, Portugal all had empires covering probably a lot of remaining parts of the world. Trade was extensive, travel was extensive. Even relatively middle class jobs could mean whole families shipping out to live abroad. The working class were involved in trade coming in right across the world - liverpool and Bristol were once the biggest trading ports in the world. Our culture has been outward looking for centuries, as has most of Europe.

We are also geographically very close to a lot of counties all with distinct cultures and languages … in uk particularly most people travel to other countries seeking sun. the majority of people in USA will never travel outside USA. Majority do not have passports. A lot will not even travel outside their state- but USA states are huge…in USA people use flights like buses to travel to see friends just because of the sheer distances. Whilst many states have ethnic diversity, it is mostly black American or Hispanic or Mexican. There is not the huge melting pot of cultures in small cities that you get in Europe.

what Americans are taught in schools is mostly focused on USA. European history is brief and focuses on routes of American culture. Geography tends to focus on American and physical aspects without knowing countries etc..but hey…how many of us know all the US states and their capitals. There is only so much anyone can learn and retain as knowledge.

so, to many Europeans, Americans can come across as uneducated..they’re not but their knowledge of the world outside USA tends to be picked up form their somewhat dodgy press outlets and therefore their knowledge is skewed towards places in crisis. Hence why they believed a few years back that Birmingham was virtually a Islamic state or whatever it was 🤦‍♀️

I think you can then add to that , most Americans are conservative with small c compared with Europeans. Things we think of as middle or right wing politics are seen as socialism virtually. And most American cannot stand the very idea of anything vaguely smelling of socialism. Hence why there is such resistance to a public funded health care system, or pretty much anything publicly funded ( maternity leave, workers rights , social housing). The amercian dream is the self made man, and that everything is possible if you put effort and hard work in. You are the author of your own fortunes and misfortunes. And then you top it off with the cherry of patriotism.. Americans do not diss their country in any shape or form. They big it up. It is the best country in the world, the best democracy ..this is an almost cult like belief. Their lack of knowledge of other cultures allows this to prevail widely and unchallenged.

Hence why my ex boss, an educated women , earning big bucks and of mature years, who had actually travelled extensively all over the world , once said that USA had created the first democracy in the world and it was the model all others countries wanted to follow and eminate. Not one person in the room was disagreed. Until I gently said” er, where does the world democracy come from? Would that be Greek? “ 🤦‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️

That's called colonisation, not being "well travelled".

BradfordBrontesaurus · 21/06/2022 17:41

Mistlewoeandwhine · 20/06/2022 12:21

Anyway, I’m N.Irish and know a lot since I lived there for the first 30 yrs of my life. I now live in England and know that the English tend to know very little about the mess that they created on their doorstep.

Totally this. Non-UK person here and the English discourse on the various problems they've created historically around the globe leaves me astounded.

ComtesseDeSpair · 21/06/2022 17:44

Until I gently said “er, where does the world democracy come from? Would that be Greek?”

Greek democracy wasn’t modern democracy as we understand it, though, was it? For one very basic point, it was direct democracy rather than representative, which is an entirely different system. Just because the word democracy derives from the Greek, doesn't mean the modern political system most of us believe is broadly best actually emulates the system the word originally referred to.

Random789 · 21/06/2022 17:50

Neither of those views is particularly weird or naive, especially the second. After all, there were/are loads of protests across america aginast some of the US's aggressive anti-immigration policies, esp during the Trump era. And he is actually from america so presumably has a much more nuanced, granular awareness of attitudes there than we do in the UK. Perhaps he was in one of the many locations/ sub-cultures where support for immigrants was common, and he is generalising from that experience -- which may not be wholly accurate but could still be more accurate than the view from the other side of the Atlantic.

Re Northern Ireland, I thought that demographic changes and the complete fuckups resulting from Brexit were to some extent increasing support there for unification, so it isn't a daft view at all.

Henerlo · 21/06/2022 17:53

BradfordBrontesaurus · 21/06/2022 17:41

Totally this. Non-UK person here and the English discourse on the various problems they've created historically around the globe leaves me astounded.

Show quote history

Agree with this but it's probably true for lots of countries. Information is political after all regardless of where you are. I mean I've met a fair few Spanish and Portuguese people who have major blind spots wrt South/Central America.

But even within such a context I was a bit dumbfounded at the English university educated colleague I was chatting with recently who said he thought that some people said 'Derry' rather than 'Londonderry' because they were lazy and wanted to use a shorter word!

Somatronic · 21/06/2022 17:58

LongPath · 21/06/2022 13:59

Politics is American is very polarised and people seem only to know people like them. So some people would protest about Rwanda, others would love it, but you'd personally only known one sort.

Irish history is "taught" very differently there to it is in UK and TBH, I don't think we can assume we're right on that one. Although an astonishing amount of funding for the IRA came from the US and one of the reasons for the marked reduction in bombings here was the twin towers attacks and the US cracking down on people who funded terrorism. They'd almost seen it as charitable donations prior to that.

I don't necessarily think his views are odd, just different, which is a product of his background.

What are you talking about? There's the small matter of the IRA ceasefire and Good Friday agreement too, both of which came before 9/11.

Re OP, I'm Irish and I agree with his opinion on the Irish question.

Dogroses · 21/06/2022 18:05

I live in the states. DP is American. He's very smart but it never ceases to shock me that he will give a very confident opinion on absolutely anything regardless of whether he knows a single thing about it. Seems to be accepted here. I'd be amazed if an American man said 'gosh I don't know enough about it.' 😂

Pastaa · 21/06/2022 18:38

Are you sure he actually has this degree? His opinions are very naïve and wishy washy. It's fine not to know something but to be so opinionated about something you know very little about is...embarrassing.

Critiquelist · 21/06/2022 18:45

And here we have @LongPath showing the perfect example of someone with no clue about Irish history talking confidently about it!

EmeraldShamrock1 · 21/06/2022 19:01

When talking about Ireland..."I'm really hoping for Irish reunification". When I asked why and tell him that the majority of N.Irish citizens want to stay part of the UK, he says "it'd be cool to have it just as one island, particularly because of how downtrodden the Irish have been historically". Like sure, I get that, but if N.Ireland want to stay in the UK,.
That is a matter of opinion not fact.
It really depends on what side of the coin you are on.
There has been a lot of talk about reunification in the future within the Republic of Ireland.
Once the protocol is destroyed businesses from both sides might sway towards reunited Ireland due to eu membership.

LongPath · 21/06/2022 19:04

Critiquelist · 21/06/2022 18:45

And here we have @LongPath showing the perfect example of someone with no clue about Irish history talking confidently about it!

Which bit, the US funding or the amazing coincidence that the IRA declared it's armed campaign over just as the US declared its War on Terror?

TheYearOfSmallThings · 21/06/2022 19:10

Are you 100% certain his background is as he had told you? Where does he work now and what does he do?

His opinions are not that unusual but the way you describe him speaking and his lack of knowledge and perspective would make me wonder.