To think these comments are a bit uneducated/weird?

[savebuckbeak]

I expect I'll probably get slated for this, but here goes...

I recently started dating someone. Very nice guy, polite, kind, seems intelligent (went to a Ivy League university in the US), American but lived in the UK for a short while. Sometimes when we're talking I feel like some of the things he says, especially if we're discussing politics/world affairs, just sound a bit...odd. He's clearly very highly educated, which is what surprises me more, but maybe he's just a bit naive? It's made me feel like I can't really converse with him on the same level, but he's so great in other ways that I'd feel reluctant to let him go. Some examples:

When talking about Ireland..."I'm really hoping for Irish reunification". When I asked why and tell him that the majority of N.Irish citizens want to stay part of the UK, he says "it'd be cool to have it just as one island, particularly because of how downtrodden the Irish have been historically". Like sure, I get that, but if N.Ireland want to stay in the UK, then...?!

When talking about Priti Patel's Rwanda policy, he says "that would never fly in the US. There'd be protests all over the country." UMMMMM. Really?!?!?!? In America, where race relations and immigration rhetoric is arguably even worse? Is he suggesting that the US is some enlightened land? I questioned him on this, and he said "but there were loads of protests about the Iraq war!" Ummmm yes there were, but that's a different issue. The majority of people probably appreciated that protesting against a foreign war, where US national security is directly at stake, is worth it. But for a couple thousand migrants that get shipped off somewhere far away - that's not something (sadly) the average person would get up in arms about in the same way.

Anyway, there've been various different comments like this, and it surprises me because he seems to read a lot and I initially thought he was quite switched on, but I feel a bit confused now.

Conversely, if the NI situation was as straightforward as the OPs date seems to think it is, a united Ireland would have happened already

not really, there are many things that should happen or that majority wants or that common sense dictates they should but still they don't. It is never as simple as everybody wants it and it will benefit most so let's do it.

The Rwanda comment is especially annoying.

Without sounding horrendously stereotypical he sounds like a typical American who’s lived in a middle class bubble. The ones who come to Europe and skirt around countries for a few weeks, spend a day in Rome and think they’ve ‘done Italy’. That sort.
His lack of understanding about his own country would frustrate me. Talk about it! See how you can have those convos.

Neither the OP nor her boyfriend sound like people I'd want to talk about Northern Ireland with. I think it's reductive to focus on orange vs green when the vast majority of Northern Irish people just want to get on with living their lives without the sectarian nonsense holding them back, more and more people are identifying primarily as Northern Irish and they get left out of a lot of the discussion. To me the real story of the election was the growth in support for Alliance which holds out hope that NI can be a forward looking functioning democracy in the future rather than being held hostage by parties living in the past. The question of reunification will be addressed at some point in the future bit I think that's down to the correct economic case being presented rather than being 100% ideological. As an Irish person I would welcome NI to join us and think they would be better represented in a United Ireland than they are in the United Kingdom but it's not my call to make.

As for the boyfriend's degree, there's only so much history one can study in a few years. I have a history degree which means I have a really in depth knowledge of certain stuff but there's lots out there I don't know about. I tried to choose diverse modules but I don't find it surprising that an American student wouldn't have studied much about Northern Ireland or even the United Kingdom.

Throw him back and let someone else have him. If these comments are what are putting you off I think you'll find dating quite tricky! Is he kind? Is empathetic? Is he generous? Is he curious? Does he listen? He's not interviewing for a job, OP. He's chatting away to you and inherently has a different perspective....

more and more people are identifying primarily as Northern Irish and they get left out of a lot of the discussion

only you can't. You can decide whether you are British or Irish. Northern Ireland is not a recognized country despite what people think, it lacks the criteria and is not on the UN lists of official countries. It is a stateria according to the last reports I read on it, it can be seen as region or terrority but it can't actually be technically described as its own country.

Probe more about his degree, he may have only covered a few countries or he may have made his degree up to impress the ladies...

And many people don't share his viewpoint too.

Polls and overall election results is evidence as well as being a very good indicator of viewpoints in general. In short, Nationalists and Republicans are still on the same percentage as in 1998 - approximately 40%. This represents zero growth in 24 years.

The GFA states the Secretary of State is obliged to call a referendum ONLY if it appears likely more people are in favour of a united Ireland. And this is not the case.

So, views such as "If they are so keen on referendums -why not test it" which you quoted from someone here is actually contrary to the terms of the GFA. Its also a meaningless soundbite in this context.

I’m interested in which degrees cover more than a small subset of counties, time periods, or subsets of a subject matter? I can tell you an awful lot about the Chinese agrarian economy circa 620CE, but precisely nothing about the political history of Ecuador. I thought that was pretty standard at bachelor’s level - but I’ll enjoy thinking of how it probably means there are idiots out there who think it must mean I’m making up having a degree at all.

My point is its NOT as simple as that. The converse point to the person I quoted IS entirely valid.

If it was that simple, a united Ireland would have happened by now.

That it has not is testament to the complexity and division of the situation.

I was talking about how people feel. Obviously they have the right to claim Irish or British citizenship, I wasn't suggesting anything else. I just think it's very unfair to paint everyone from NI as in a constant standoff and defined by hate. Most people just want to go about their lives in peace.

I have nothing against Americans, but they do have a deeply ingrained sense of superiority. I don't mean individually. I mean as a nation. Americans just take it for granted that their country does everything better, and that everyone is trying to catch up with them. It's so ingrained that they barely think about it. American exceptionalism is still alive.

I also find them quite naive/idealistic. It's like they see everything through the lens of a sickly/mawkish Hollywood movie - goodies and baddies, America riding to the rescue, etc. I'm often struck by how different we are. We assume that because we share a language we must be the same. And most British people take it for granted that we're more like Americans than, say, the French. In my experience that isn't true. I feel much more at home with Dutch, French, and German people than I do with Americans. We underestimate how European we really are. I also feel more in tune with an Australian or a Canadian. We are much more cynical, skeptical, self-conscious, embarassable and apologetic than Americans.

As for his opinions. Americans have a ridiculous view of Ireland. Again, it's that mawkish, 'simplistic movie' view of the world - evil British, heroic downtrodden Irish, brave rebellion, happy ending. There is plenty for the British to feel ashamed of, but the Irish haven't been "downtrodden" for centuries. Sure, there were terrible things done 300 years ago, but everyone was doing terrible things to everyone else. The British working class lived lives of utter horror until well into the 20th century. And the Irish were involved up to their necks in the empire, which was full of Irish businessmen, traders, doctors, engineers, architects, army officers, etc, all making lots of money. Also, the British generally bend over backwards to be nice to the Irish. Most of our TV shows, for example, seem to have a quota system for Irish hosts or guests.

And the Rwanda policy is just an attempt to deal with illegal immigration, which is a problem everywhere, including the US. I could easily imagine the US coming up with such a policy. In many ways, it's a far more brutal place. I also resent be preached to by a nation that still has the death penalty!

Also, the British generally bend over backwards to be nice to the Irish. Most of our TV shows, for example, seem to have a quota system for Irish hosts or guests

I think there is no hostility between Ireland and Britain to be honest. It's all history that most people are indifferent too these days. I even think those in ROI who'd like a United Ireland would still not harbour any dislike to the Brits over it.

Surfbox said:

only you can't. You can decide whether you are British or Irish. Northern Ireland is not a recognized country despite what people think, it lacks the criteria and is not on the UN lists of official countries. It is a stateria according to the last reports I read on it, it can be seen as region or terrority but it can't actually be technically described as its own country.

Incorrect. The GFA doesn't prohibit anyone in Northern Ireland from identifying as Northern Irish at all.

If this was the case, then Northern Irish would not appear on the census which they very clearly do. Therefore, it is entirely valid to identify as Northern Irish and is not contrary to the GFA.

Whilst Northern Ireland is NOT an independent, sovereign country, its not true that a country has to be sovereign in order to be called a country.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are just some of the world's non-sovereign countries. None of them appear on the United Nations list in their own right since this list deals only with sovereign, independent countries.

The Governments of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Federal Republic of Germany both equally recognise England, Scotland, Wales AND Northern Ireland as countries as does the EU. Non-sovereign, but countries all the same.

Surfbox clearly thought the GFA said something it really didn't vis a vis their assertion the people can only identify as British, Irish or both.

There's plenty who identify as Northern Irish as do I and this is a bigger group than those who identify as Irish once all the permutations of identity is accounted for.

You're correct that not everyone is at loggerheads in Northern Ireland. This has always been the case whatever the outside world thought.

The voices of the extremes took all the attention. As Blair told Durkan, the difference between the moderate SDLP and Sinn Féin was....SF had guns and the SDLP didn't.

The obsessive focus on the extremes has been disastrous, especially since it ended up denying justice to the victims created by these extremes in order to keep the extremes happy. The extremes silenced the majority of people all those years.

International right to justice was breached which is routinely ignored so the pain and injustice has been passed on.

We're not all at loggerheads nor is it truly a case of Catholics v Protestants. I am a Catholic who's in favour of the UK and this group is just over twice as common as a Protestant being in favour of a united Ireland.

The people of Northern Ireland are far more nuanced and complex than we're given credit for. So, I appreciate your comment on this point.

As for his opinions. Americans have a ridiculous view of Ireland. Again, it's that mawkish, 'simplistic movie' view of the world - evil British, heroic downtrodden Irish, brave rebellion, happy ending. There is plenty for the British to feel ashamed of, but the Irish haven't been "downtrodden" for centuries. Sure, there were terrible things done 300 years ago, but everyone was doing terrible things to everyone else.

Oh right, it's Americans who are ignorant 🙄

Yes, Americans tend to support Irish reunification. In part because we all learn in school about the 2 million Irish people who came to the US during the Great Famine, and the 1 million people in Ireland who died. That was in the 1840s by the way, not 300 years ago. 'Not downtrodden for centuries' sure then explain why the Irish war for independence took place, why the Troubles happened, if everyone was being treated so well. That was in the 20th century, by the way.

Reunification is an incredibly complex subject and I agree that this guy's take is very simplistic. But it is not uneducated or weird to support the idea of it.

And the OP herself sounds clueless about the US, if she thinks it's impossible there would be protests over a similar Rwanda policy. Clearly not aware of the many protests and civil disobedience against ICE in recent years, not to mention the broader Black Lives Matter protests, nor the fact that people being shipped in chains to an African country has a different historical resonance in the US.

Before I moved to the UK I totally believed in this narrative where us Americans were all ignorant and stupid while British people were all really clever and sophisticated and worldly.

Then I moved here and found out the most read newspaper was the Daily Mail

Can't we just say there are ignorant people in every country and stop with all the 'Americans are so stupid' threads

As others said, a majority having an opinion isn't really a persuading argument nor is having the opinion means it should be done by force and saying there would be protests doesn't mean he think the US is better at racism, just that recent Americans would protest more visibly than what is seen here.

He may be firmer in his opinion that you'd like, but I don't think it's as weird as it's being made out.

I’ve never had a man mansplain to me one hundredth of the amount I’ve been Britsplained to about the US by the women of Mumsnet. Agreed. Some of the whoppers in this thread alone are ridiculous.

He isn't from a fly over state is he, if he was then he would most probably have very very different opinions

There are more people in the 'flyover states' than in the UK and it's just as diverse in opinions for its population. If you look at a lot of the major protests, many are in those states.

Think about it, America has never”ruled” or governed another country.

Puerto Rico, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, 'American' Samoa are just a few of the countries the US currently 'rules' as territories. US also once had the Philippines, Marshall Islands, Palau, and others that became independent. Add to that arguably Hawaii and the indigenous nations currently recognized within their borders.

The time to travel with US labour practices I think is a bigger hinderance than how big the US empire is. Looking at writings from the height of the British empire, many weren't traveling then either.

They have been raised being told the US is always right and the centre of the universe.

Education varies a lot across the US as it does in the UK.

During lockdown, I listened in on my DD's lesson on the American War of Independence and I was shocked a British school would be so pro-US. Never growing up in the States, having gone through time period repeatedly, were the Americans framed as products of the Enlightenment against their behind the time British tyrants. It was the most good guy-bad guy version.

They even covered the Intolerable Acts, focusing on how intolerable it was to Americans with no mention of the horrific acts that had led to it. Also, no mention of American Indigenous peoples and that quite a few nations backed the Brits during the war and fled to British control territory after.

The idea that the UK is some island who hates foreigners and sends them to Rwanda whereas the US has amazing race relations and no racists who had immigrants.

Saying Americans would protest isn't saying US race relations are great. That's a jump in logic I'm not getting.

How many times have you heard or read someone say we should protest like the French or Americans and it's been laughed off because 'that's not what Brits do'?
Yeah, that stereotype is sticking so it's not surprising on hearing shite like the Rwanda idea people would think about how their own would protest it and not seeing much of Brits doing that.

American protests are just far more visible than their British counterparts, even when most of both fail to do much. I'm aware of actions activists are doing around deportation and the immigration detention centres, but I have to seek that out because I rarely see them written about in mainstream news even in the UK, nevermind getting into international news.

However, I know a lot about the protests and activism around the US 'Muslim ban' and immigration laws without any effort, even trying to avoid it. Hell, I know about school board protests and concerns of infiltration going on the States without going to look for it. Even with the few that have happened here, it's just not comparable in visibility or impact.

And yeah, racist Americans have found comfort in recent British politics as the protests and divisiveness is comparably less visible. Brexit and now the Rwanda move has had an impact. They've fueled a lot of the far right US separatist and hate groups recently. Texit has been in the news again recently. I don't think we should entirely blame the Americans for that.

I’ve never had a man mansplain to me one hundredth of the amount I’ve been Britsplained to about the US by the women of Mumsnet.

YES

What an astonishing amalgam of claptrap there is on here about the US.Also some very measured and thoughtful comments.

There is plenty for the British to feel ashamed of, but the Irish haven't been "downtrodden" for centuries. Sure, there were terrible things done 300 years ago, but everyone was doing terrible things to everyone else.

It's a bit more recent that that!

What about the 20th century systematic discrimination against the Catholic community in NI? Why do you think the troubles broke out?

I hate 'uneducated'. It's so pass agg.

Exactly @Wallaw

It's a bit rich to say Americans don't know anything about Northern Ireland when so many British people voted for Brexit without even thinking about the consequences for Northern Ireland and the GFA, without even realising why it would cause problems.

To be clear, the Republic of Ireland (or its predecessor the Irish Free State) did not exist at the point that Northern Ireland was created. It is the case that people of Ireland (that is it’s proper and full name) would have to approve unification just as the people of Northern Ireland would.

In reality though there is very limited prospect of the people of Ireland saying no but the people of Northern Ireland saying yes. So the focus is always on whether and when the people of Northern Ireland might want unification, rather than the people of Ireland.

so many British people voted for Brexit without even thinking about the consequences for Northern Ireland

most of British people on the mainland couldn't give 2 fucks about NI, the same can be said for most people in the Republic of Ireland in that they don't care.

The poster was just saying that people identify as Northern Irish. And it’s true - they do.

Northern Ireland doesn’t have to be a country for people to identify as Northern Irish.

It's a bit rich to say Americans don't know anything about Northern Ireland when so many British people voted for Brexit without even thinking about the consequences for Northern Ireland and the GFA, without even realising why it would cause problems.

I'm Irish and I remember logging on here to read threads after the Brexit referendum and the bafflement of many here as to why us Irish were being bloody awkward about not leaving the EU with Britain was fucking hilarious. There are far far too many people in the UK for whom, Ireland being geographically part of the British Isles means to them that we ARE part of Britain.
May Irish would like the idea of reunification, but recognise that at present, the difficulties in bringing that about are insurmountable. The GFA was the best solution and remains the best solution - giving the people of NI the freedom to choose to be both, or one or the other.