To disagree with the statement "the other woman owes you nothing"

[Sarahcoggles]

I see this time and again on MN.
Woman posts that husband is having an affair. She hates the OW and is very angry with her, as well as being angry with husband of course.
Then a load of posters pile in saying she should direct all her anger at husband, as he was the only one who owed her anything. The OW owed her nothing, so she shouldn't be angry with her.

I think that's wrong. We all owe our fellow human beings respect and courtesy. If I bump someone's car in a car park I should leave them a note. I don't owe them anything, I never promised I wouldn't bump into their car, they didn't put their trust in me not to bump into their car , I never promised to pay for any damage that I might do to their car. They don't even know me. But it's still my fault, my carelessness, and common courtesy dictates that I should leave a note and be held accountable.

Why is it perfectly fine to have a relationship with someone else's husband, knowing that you're going to hurt that person, just because they're a stranger and you never promised you wouldn't shag their husband?

Personally I think both parties are equally to blame, just in different ways.

@NumberTheory surely "foresaking all others" is a vow of fidelity? And the congregation at weddings are sometimes asked to stand and say "w will" in response to the minister asking if those present will support and be a friend to the marriage. Obviously that doesn't include everyone in the world as they aren't there but I think the spirit of the declaration is that there is a social obligation not to hinder a marriage.

Whilst it is 100% true that no-one can be forced to cheat, it is naive and somewhat ridiculous to deny that any person is not more LIKELY to cheat if someone is flirting, flattering, offering a shiny and sexy alternative to the everyday humdrum of family life. Its not the case (in my experience) that a cheater is always looking to cheat. In both cases of my infidelity and my later ex husband's it was because one particular person came along, made their interest very clear at a time when the respective marriages were fine, if routine and under the stress of young kids in the case of mine and ex husband's. In the case of my ex and ow's affair, she actively participated in the deception, joking with him via text about how she would teach him to lie better so he get away more often. She knew me, and the kids. Had been to our house under the guise of ex's "friend" . Very much a damsel in distress scenario who he was "rescuing".

I don't really understand the issue with placing some blame on a (knowing) OW. There's not a finite amount. Equally, can we please stop using the word "bitter" ?- I think it gaslights cheated on spouses that they should shut up about it and move on, regardless of whether they are living day to day with single parent reality of the cheating. The affair itself may be in the past but the consequences can be ongoing for years in a very present and real way, so not being able to say "meh" about the fallout of the affair is unsurprising.

How does that explain serial cheats?

I think it's a reasonable response. I was cheated on years ago and remember all of my anger was directed at the woman. As in how dare she compete with me and win. In reality my ex boyfriend was a twat and made the decision to cheat.

I'm not saying the cheating husband shouldn't be blamed too. If you read my OP I say they're both equally to blame.

If you read the post you quoted you'll see I'm saying people do shitty thing but the only person to blame for broken promises is the person who broke the promise. My position is about holding men to a higher standard. Men hold down responsible jobs which require them to exercise discipline and good judgement but apparently they are easy prey to marauding femme fatales who treat husband stealing as sport. Can we please stop infantilising men and hold them to account like the adults they are. The OW is a distraction, for many adulterers their infidelity is opportunistic rather than woman specific.

Yanbu. It takes two pieces of scum to tango so they are both to blame. Highly doubt it's debatable who of them has higher morals.

Nope I disagree with you OP sorry.He has commitments to wife and family if he strays then its all on him.

I'm not condoning the behaviour of the OW, but how can she be equally to blame? She didn't have a relationship with you, she didn't stand up in front of witnesses and declare vows until the end of time.

The spouse who cheats is always the one who is mostly to blame. Doesn't matter if the husband actively pursued the OW or was pursued by the OW, he's the one who chose to break his vows.

Putting equal blame on the OW is minimising the shittiness of the cheating spouse.

Its not that simple . Fr om years watching how married men behave in male dominated corporates, many married men treat work like their own harem/hunting ground for extra sex: & they trot out a tired old spiel the OW believes. We don't sleep together any more, I will leave when the kids are older, we are separated etc etc. Too many women think their husband is some guileless innocent , led away by the predatory, slutty OW.

Yep, fine with me. If my DH values a cheap shag over our marriage, I would be glad to know that so that I can dump him. I don't want to be with a man who would choose that and I would not blame the woman after a quickie as she would mean nothing to me.

All I care about is his commitment to our relationship and he is free to leave if he doesn't want that. So am I. We are together because we want to be I don't think he would risk all that we have. If he does, that's his choice which he is free to make. He knows where I stand and we are in agreement on this. Always have been.

@riesenrad, sexist nonsense you say?
How about equality amongst cheaters, we shall call them all cunts. Men and women.
Fixed it for you🧐

I 100% agree, it’s perfectly possible to be angry with the OW without taking a shred of your anger away from H. In fact, confronting the OW and telling her what I thought of her was the single best thing I did after my ex had an affair. Remembering the look on her face when I told her who I was kept me strong when I was wavering about taking ex back.

OP, I think you're wrong. I've been the wronged wife and I've been the 'other woman'. I've been an attractive young woman and a less attractive older woman. Men are out for sex, wherever they can get it. If a man is unfaithful to his wife, it's by choice - his choice. He knows what he's doing. It's not a woman's job to police other people's marriages.

Wrong OP!

The OW didn't take any vows with humankind not to shag anyone else's husband/wife/partner.

IMO it's the person who's having an affair who is responsible. It's their relationship/marriage, if they've chosen not to end their current situation and begun another relationship, that is THEIR choice.

The wife/partner may be angry with the OW but what will it achieve really? It certainly won't resolve the problem!

I don't think I've seen advice on here that says anything as blunt as 'the OW owes you nothing.'

I'd say the general view is that the poster's DH/DW/DP is responsible for their own behaviour and is the one who has betrayed their commitment to the poster. I don't think that's the same as saying the affair partner is neutral or that you shouldn't have anger towards them too, but posters on here do come down hard on any 'temptress' narrative that seeks to shift blame away from the DH/DW/DP.

So the OW's behaviour is absolutely fine, and not worthy of any criticism because it's all on him?

But avoiding shagging married men is not "policing" marriages. It's just avoiding shagging married men. It's not difficult.

So if there were no legal obligation to leave a note with your details after bumping someone's car, do you think it would be fine to just drive off?

Serial cheats? An even better example!

Oh gosh and serial cheats where the DH has had a second/third chance? Well that couldn’t illustrate my point any better.

1. Cheaters lie, plenty of women end up as the OW without knowing because the man pretends to either be single or divorced/separated.

1. At the end of the day it's the man that made promises and took vows. He is the one endangering the health (physical and mental) of his wife/partner. If A man doesn't cheat only because he hasn't had the opportunity to do so , then he's still a cheater.

1. A lot of women focus their anger on the OW in an attempt to minimise their partner's role in it. Very often they're still together, husband forgiven and she still hates the OW and longs for revenge even years after. There's nothing righteous about that. It's taking the easy way out. I understand why, but it is what is. An (unhealthy)coping mechanism .

So the OW's behaviour is absolutely fine, and not worthy of any criticism because it's all on him?

I think the general consensus is that it's not OK to have affairs with married but we are responding to the question in your OP.

To suggest that men should be protected from temptation takes us along a path towards women having to cover up to avoid exactly that, tempting a man.

It not about men being prey. Its about if you get along with a guy and you become good friends and there’s a bit of sexual chemistry. What do you do? You do nothing.

That’s it. No instigating or reciprocating a kiss. No meeting up outside of work. Until he makes the decision that his marriage is over you do nothing that you wouldn’t want a boyfriend/ husband seeing if the roles were reversed. Why would you not?

Which cannot go ahead without witnesses.
My logic is sound as I fully understand the concepts and ethical obligations between the 2 and others (Public) involved in marriage.
It's a vow, a contract, and has always been a public institution, marriage, and its proper form have been deeply embedded in national policy, law, and political rhetoric globally. It's a universal custom, a fundamental of human civilization.

Emotional subjective individual opinion is not Logic it's fallacious reasoning only valid in your mind.

@NumberTheory surely "foresaking all others" is a vow of fidelity? And the congregation at weddings are sometimes asked to stand and say "w will" in response to the minister asking if those present will support and be a friend to the marriage.

That's just a church thing. The only legal promise you have to make is that you're free to marry. * *

Might be pretty difficult though! OW here. It had been months since the friendship tipped over into an emotional affair. By the time I snagged that married man, I’m pretty sure I loved him.

He didn’t leave her because of me. He left her because of her.

A lot of women focus their anger on the OW in an attempt to minimise their partner's role in it. Very often they're still together, husband forgiven and she still hates the OW and longs for revenge even years after

The husband is the relationship she has control over. She picked him, they are in the relationship together, she has as much say over when it ends as him.
The OW is not owed anything.