To hate it when people say “my husband/partner/boyfriend doesn’t do the night feeds because he works”

[ForestFae]

Every time I see or hear this phrase, I rage. Usually said by some poor sleep deprived new mum who’s looking after the baby/ies all day long. Why is looking after a baby not considered valuable work? Why are men getting away with using this rubbish excuse?

You can rant all you like about western society, feeling undervalued etc but what actually matters at an individual level is the partner you choose to have children with and the way you carve things out between you. Some people genuinely don't wish to combine paid work with parenting and that's a valid choice if your partner agrees with that, and in these cases it's likely that the SAHP will do the vast bulk of child and domestic related chores. Other people choose different set ups and want a more equal balance of earning/child/domestic responsibilities.

FWIW i was determined that I wanted a more equal balance when I partnered up, and we both always worked and shared things like night wakings - apart from when I was bf as I certainly wasn't going to wake dh up when he didn't need to be awake.

All this was years ago - my kids are adults now. Before paternity leave, transferable parental leave, year-long maternity leave... it was possible to strike a decent balance then and the legislation is in place to make this more straightforward now.

It's a shame that you seem unhappy and angry with your choices.

I’m not remotely unhappy with my choices.

Hi OP. I admit I have not RTFT, but I've read your comments. I just wanted to give my perspective as someone who was a SAHM to 4 DC (and still am) and they are now 19, 17, 15 and 12.

As I remember, I did do all the nights. I think it started because I was bf so there was no point in DH getting up. Then a pattern just emerged from there.

I'll be honest, it never really occurred to me to get DH up. With the first baby, I would say I was ok and I adapted to sleeping in two / three hour stints, night and day. No I wasn't at my sharpest, but it was enough. I only had a baby to focus on and had lots of other friends in the same situation so that became the norm. I didn't have to deal with actual adults and work deadlines, so I just accepted that feeling a bit zombified was part and parcel of it.

Where it does get more tiring is with the second, third and fourth babies as you have to get them up and out for school etc and you can't just follow the pace of one baby. That's when it gets more tiring. But also, I think you get used to broken sleep by that point. What I always did, was whenever I did have any downtime, I made the most of it.

Having said all this, I never had kids with chronic sleep problems or anything like that. When one of them was ill, DH would inevitably get involved.

Even with teens, I still don't sleep past 6 because I physically can't. I'm 48 now and maybe in peri-menopause and I think this I'm often waking up at 4am these days. Su sorry to say, it isn't just babies that affect sleep patterns!

I think it really depends on individual couples. Everyone is different and some people manage in less sleep than others. My DH had an extremely intense job and was also often overseas so I never relied on him in that way. But had he just worked a regular 9-5 in an admin job or something, I think I would have had different expectations.

There are no hard and fast rules basically. Ok, I was a bit zombified for a few years (well, maybe a decade!) but at least I never had to worry about money or deal with difficult people at work. Nor did I have work deadlines imposed in me. Nor did I have to 'look professional' or live my days to anyone else's schedule apart from my own and the kids.

@ForestFae

I'm not sure if you've already acknowledged this so apologies if I've missed it.

Surely you take the point in relation to the greater degree of flexibility you have over your day as a SAHP? I'm assuming the lessons you plan for your children are decided upon by you and you only? And that you design them and decide when they will happen? And if you want or need to change the schedule for the day, that's easily done in most cases? You don't have a boss checking that you're doing what it says in your diary or timetable, for example? No pressure of deadlines looming?

I'm not saying that to undervalue what you do, it sounds very hard work from how you put it across on here. But surely you see that you - as the boss - can change and flex to suit yourself and your needs (and those of your family) that day? Paid jobs don't work like that, and hence there is an added layer of pressure for working parents in terms of accountability, inflexibility, deadlines, and so on.

Removing that pressure in itself I would argue removes a layer of intensity from being at home with the children, surely?

I definitely had more flexibility in the office than at home. I find my kids don't understand the concept of please stop talking to me and leave me alone. In work if I wasn't feeling great I could a)call in sick and b)reschedule my day so that i was working on a report or doing research or site visits which required less thinking. My kids are 10 times more intense than any boss I've ever had, with the exception of one who was such an arsehole that I actually had zero respect for him or drive to motivate myself so it all levelled out.

Which is why comparison is a complete waste of time.

If they’re interacting with each other, I’m planning what to do next or setting up the next activity while also supervising because my DC get carried away very easily and will take things too far. It’s not like I don’t let them do things, they’re very independent more so than kids their own age as they’re raised climbing trees, doing chores, and spending most of the time outside, but everything we do involves some level of thought

Fair enough. I suspect that's the case for most people when looking after children but, for me anyway, it happened more automatically without consciously feeling I was planning what to do next or setting up activities. Everything everyone does requires some level of thought.

I hope, despite the hard work, you're enjoying bringing up your children and that they end up appreciating every minute that you put into it.

Weird entitled assumption. Most mums can’t afford 12 months maternity leave, or even 6 months

I definitely had more flexibility in the office than at home.

That's interesting (genuinely - I've never been a SAHP as I say but have been on mat leave for a year which is the closest I have been to it).

My days were easily 10 times more flexible when on mat leave compared to a day at work. My boss isn't a tyrant, he's actually lovely and generally supportive. But he still expects me to be accountable to him about my day and where I am and when, and why, etc, which is fair enough as that's what they pay me for! I'm accountable to no one at home and I call the shots, so I suppose that's what I meant.

But I take the point that some kids can be non stop and intense! My little one has just started toddling so I probably have that to come ... 🤣

I did all the night feeds because firstly i breast fed, secondly my husband drove for a living and it was imperative that he didnt doze off behind the wheel of his articulated lorry doing 60mph on the motorway.
He did pull his weight in other areas though

It certainly comes across as some SAHP being at pains to tell us how difficult and inflexible their days are.

I'm not denying that looking after small children can be demanding but it's sad that some people seem angry and frustrated with the choice they've made.

Personally I loved my non- work days with my little ones. Yes of course sometimes they argue, are stubborn etc and need constant supervision in some situations but it wasn't the ordeal some people seem to make it into

missdemeanors - Yes I also loved days with the kids when they were little. Having 4 at home was not easy, but still preferable (to me) to the alternative. At least if it's a horrible morning and they're a bit ill, you can just put the fire on and watch movies and play games or whatever. You're not having to drop them at at baby day centre at a given time and then rush through traffic into work and do a days work there.

Yanbu. There are very few instances where the couple cant work around it. He could finish his labour intensive man day, have dinner and go to bed at 7pm and sleep til 3am and do the rest of the night. Or one night on and one off.

Whoever isn't working can get up and then day nap with the baby, which is an option not open to the working one. If there are older children that make this impossible, then more sharing will be needed. I breastfed, so not much point DH getting up regardless unless I wanted him to fetch something; instead he would take the baby for me to have a lie-in, make dinner while I chilled out etc. You don't know everything about how tasks are split in someone else's relationship and if someone is unhappy with the effort their own partner makes then that's up to them to resolve, you can rage all you want but it's not clear why you'd bother.

Your last few posts have been enlightening, OP. It sounds like you never held a particularly intellectually challenging job or anything that required much beyond repetitive tasks, and you struggle to conceptualize “desk” roles that require more active engagement and a clear, sharp mind.

You also apparently struggle to comprehend that not everyone has the same approach to being a SAHM that you do (an approach which appears to lead to you being consistently burned out).

Essentially—and I say this as an observation, not to be mean—you come off as lacking in emotional intelligence in regards to social awareness, perspective taking, and empathy. I hope your children have the opportunity to see those important skills modeled from someone.

Perspective taking would make it clear why a SAHP would in many cases take night feedings, and, indeed, explain a major part of why maternity leave exists at all (ie to give the mother time to laze about during the day after a broken night’s sleep).

I think sleep is a basic wellbeing/health issue and I don't think whether you work or not makes you less entitled to it. Being a SAHM or on mat leave doesn't mean you should be a zombie while your DH gets a full 8 hours.

FWIW, I find working easier and less demanding than looking after under 5s all day - but I recognise that people, children and jobs all differ. My job is intellectually challenging but I am quite senior so I can set my own schedule and no one is monitoring my every move. My kids are quite intense and absolutely do monitor my every move! I also can't "just take it easy" when I have both under 5s with me, they don't get that concept, it's more stressful to try than to keep them on the move.

I’ve worked in several jobs, many of which were professional and certainly challenging. I found that type of work relatively easy - not saying everyone does, but for me personally, it wasn’t difficult. Challenging in some respects but it wasn’t exactly difficult - there were processes to follow and I was trained in the processes, it was just a case of finding the appropriate process for the particular task in front of me. There are only so many options.

I’m also not consistently burned out - I found it very challenging during the baby period, now they’re older it’s enjoyable. It’s still intense, of course it is, but I wouldn’t describe myself as being constantly burned out.

You’re incorrect about that - my empathy is with the women who have partners who don’t pull their weight. Yes some women may be happy with the arrangement as some have said here, and that’s fine, but you can’t say that society values paid work and domestic work the same and it’s always assumed domestic work is easy when it’s often just as challenging, if not more so, than paid work. That doesn’t make it less enjoyable, rewarding or worthwhile, however.

I’d argue its people who say “sleep in the day” that lack the ability to see perspectives because it’s a huge assumption that the baby sleeps well, that the SAHP doesn’t have other children, or commitments, or doctors appointments, caring responsibilities etc. God forbid they just don’t want to feel like a zombie for years?!

I think sleep is a basic wellbeing/health issue and I don't think whether you work or not makes you less entitled to it. Being a SAHM or on mat leave doesn't mean you should be a zombie while your DH gets a full 8 hours.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Of course society values paid work more highly than domestic work. Paid work benefits society as a whole, domestic work only the individual family unit. There is no benefit to wider society if a person decides to devote themselves solely to the care of their children.
Paid work often requires years of education and training, or a particular talent or skill set that people not in that work may need, but not have. Childcare and domestic duties are carried out by most of us at some point, with few being incapable of them.
As with any work, the more specialist skills required and the more people require that work, generally, the greater its value at a societal level. I can't see that changing. But given the work is only done for the benefit of the family unit, as long as its valued there, it shouldn't really matter.

but you can’t say that society values paid work and domestic work the same

And how do you propose 'society' would show the worth of domestic work? Surely you can't be proposing wages for being at home?!

Surely the value of being at home is shown by your partner agreeing to be the sole earner to finance that choice and because it's something you both believe in, and which (presumably!) the SAHP gets enjoyment from?

But not doing night time wakings doesn't mean partners aren't pulling their weight. I agree with pp, you lack the emotional intelligence to see other people's perspectives.

My dh only stated sharing night times once I went back to work, other then the odd time it was a particularly awful night. He has always done the majority of the housework though, and now I am working full time, all I do is the morning school run and cook. He does everything else.

So I really don't need your pity thanks. If anything, I pity someone so unfulfilled they need to start a thread on social media about how much they hate something that they know nothing about and has zero impact on their life. And you're in denial if you believe your happy with your choices. Happy people don't start these type of judgmental posts either.

There is a 'societal benefit' to having a SAHP if you believe young children will generally benefit from spending the majority of their waking hours with a parent, who loves them and is instinctively tuned into them, rather than someone who is paid to do it. It may not be a capitalist benefit, but capitalists don't generally look at things from the perspective if those with the least voice in society - ie, children. Don't confuse 'societal benefit' with 'capitalist benefit.' Also, dint assume that everything in 'society' has a financial price attached to it .

@5128gap great post.

To expand on this point of what society values, it's also in the interests of wider society to have children brought up with good values, who'll grow up to be productive members of society. But that can be done (or not done!) by parents who WOH or who SAH. There is no intrinsic value of having a SAHP other than the benefit for that particular family unit.

And to make it clear, I'm not minimising being a SAHP - it's an entirely valid choice provided both parents are happy with it. But it does make you question how content with their choices people are when they complain about them....

@loudsnoringcat - it's in the interests of children to grow into well adjusted positive members of society - and obviously that's a benefit to society as a whole too.

You simply cannot extrapolate from that fact that it's better to have a SAHP. It may be the right thing for family units on an individual basis but that's all you can say.

WOHP have been around a long while... many of todays adults were raised by WOHP, my own 3 adult children included. The fact is, raising children well is dependent on a huge range of factors, not simply whether a parent is with them all day.

I’m not complaining about my choices - my DH did the night.

I think you're being ridiculous to generalise this. Is mum struggling/needing help and the husband isn't helping because he's working? Yeah that's crap. But I bet, DS only wanted me at night (at 23 months, still does), and when DH tried to help, he would scream like we were torturing him, and everyone would be awake anyway. So I ended up doing all the nights and cosleeping and breastfeeding back to sleep. There are however other ways for them to help. In the early days, I was thirsty all the time so DH would have his phone on loud in the night and if I needed something and didn't want to wake the baby, DH would bring me water etc. He used to get up on the nights sometimes if he heard us awake just to keep us company.
If I just told someone yeah I do all the nights cause DH works, you'd think the same but you have no idea about our personal circumstances, how our baby is and how else DH supports me. So I think your being quite judgemental.