To think many schools forget that lots of mums work?

[malificent7]

In primary school it was almost a given that they scheduled things in the school day which is understandable but a bit sad that when i was teaching myself, i couldn't get time off for sports day etc.

In secondary school I was chatying to a mum friend who was asked to go to a meeting during school time. She can't...she works! Not a huge issue i guess and not sure how it can be solved. As an ex teacher I wouldn't have wanted to meet parents outside school hours.

Exactly what I was going to say. Many teachers are, themselves, Mums that work. Although some directed time has to be done in the evening the rest of the time they want to fit meetings etc. into their working day.

Dixiechickonhols

And mine (state sector in the ‘80s and ‘90s) was of loads of clubs, themed days and trips, and it was absolutely the making of me, especially all the ‘extras’ that I experienced at secondary level. Massively broadened my horizons, embedded me in a community while making me realised there was a much wider world out there, and provided opportunities that my own (supportive but relatively uneducated) parents just couldn’t.

I’m now on the privileged position of being highly educated, with plenty of cultural capital, and able to provide these sorts of opportunities for my own DD outside of school if necessary. But I’m also very aware that, for many other DC, school is the only place they’ll ever be able to access them.

It’s horses for courses isn’t it? When it comes to education one size certainly doesn’t fit all.

It’s for the benefit of children that their parents are able to attend meetings about their children though. Most professional jobs would expect some accommodation for the “clients”. I think some give and take on both sides is reasonable.

Yes they do. They get paid a salary and are given a lunch break. And please don’t start with the “teachers don’t get paid holidays” rubbish.

Often the people who run them have school aged children. I get that it’s annoying, but this is often why.

It's amazing how many busy working mums have time for mumsnet during the day

Teachers do not get paid for their lunch break.

Who does get paid for their lunch break? The problem is teachers say “we schedule meetings within our working hours”, while putting unpaid work on parents at very little notice! DD2 came home from primary school on a Friday afternoon, saying she had to make an Easter bonnet over the weekend - when we had a hotel, a 3 hours drive away, booked for the weekend for a family Silver Wedding Anniversary! What did the teachers think we could do, in a hotel, in a town we didn’t know, while expected to attend family get togethers?

Likewise, DD1 came home one day, saying she had to have a red, white and blue jumper for school the next day (for the Queen’s jubilee). I had no idea where to get a red, white and blue jumper! Other parents were told, they had to get a red jumper, or a white jumper. The parents had to ring each other up to work out, the children had to wear a red or blue or white jumper! (And this school was in a deprived area, so tough luck if the parents couldn’t afford it!)

My DC never saw all these dressing up days as “fun”, they got sick of them!

Oh stop it. You can do better than that.

"Teachers presumably can't attend their own children's assemblies, sports day, tea parties etc.....because they don't have any flexibility in their work days/schedule..... "

In my experience (DH is a teacher) they can attend a certain amount - he can go to the nativity every Christmas, and a sports day, but probably couldn't get out of work for every assembly.

I do think it's sometimes obvious when a teacher has gone from school to uni to teaching without any experience of any other work environment. DH did this, and he has absolutely no idea how office jobs work (both his sisters are also teachers, his mum was a SAHM and his dad self-employed, so he's just never come across it). He was surprised to hear that I have to book holidays off, for instance, and that I need to take into account when other people are off. He'd no idea that you could get a holiday request rejected. Also didn't really get that I can't just take a morning off and go in for the afternoon, or that I can't always rearrange client meetings to suit myself. So sometimes I do wonder whether some teachers just have never really had to think about stuff like that and therefore don't understand that office jobs aren't all super-flexible, and that they do require a bit of forward planning for time off.

(DH was also delighted when I brought my work laptop home at the start of lockdown, because he thought it would be way better than his school one and he could use it instead... turned out his school one is better, and anyway I can't let him use it because it has confidential stuff on it. But he was convinced that people who work in offices all have amazing up-to-date tech, while teachers have to make do with ancient stuff).

It's amazing how many busy working mums have time for mumsnet during the day

Yes, while the PC decides to install numerous updates to Windows, after being switched on; or waiting in a telephone queue to a government department or even to clear your head, because you are so confused by the mess the client has made, you can’t see the wood for the trees! I charge by the minute, so I just put on my timesheet, the minutes worked! If I choose to work 10 - 6.15 pm, rather than 10 - 6 pm, due to spending 15 minutes on my phone in the day, that is up to me!

I’m really surprised to hear of the prevalence of schools not being organised. How can it get to be like this? Even if these are brand new schools, the people
working in them aren’t in their first year of work post-graduation. How can they just forget??

Each August my DCs’ school sends out a calendar for the following school year. On it is marked all the bank holidays; all the parents’ evenings; all the sports days; all the music recitals; all school holidays; all curriculum nights; all weekend meets. For those doing pro sports, obviously that calendar changes as the year progresses, but parents of those children know what to expect and plan accordingly. At the beginning of the school year we are given the first day of the next school year +/- 2 days, so people can book flights and make travel arrangements.

During the school year, we are told by our teachers or admin or the PTA what’s coming up in the next two weeks, whether it’s things already in the calendar or new things that crop up. Teachers plan the class plan well advance. It just doesn’t happen that a teacher decides on a Monday that oh we’re going to do something on Wednesday that requires a home made bonnet. How can it?

Around 30% of children have one SAHP. On the whole, these parents aren’t stingy about “I didn’t stop working to facilitate your career” towards other parents and help other parents out with drop offs and pick ups, and working parents are still replying to emails/on WhatsApp late into the evening to get around to everything they’ve got going on in their lives.

It works. It just takes some organisation. It’s not about being able to afford things, or a lack of resource. It’s just planning ahead, having a REAL community spirit between staff, faculty and parents, and everybody giving just a little bit to ensure that every child is included. That’s what it comes down to, really: it’s every parent realising that the other kids are in their kid’s class, could be their friend, that they study and play together and that for the children this is the main thing they have going on in their lives. School is IT, up to 18yo and certainly in the primary years that means a lot of facilitating by the adults in their lives.

I’m fine with taking time off here and there for stuff but when they tell me the week before I get irritated.

Some full time working mums work shifts. Hope that helps. gentle pat on the head

'Most teachers do a lot of things for your children for free, they organise plan and practice in their own time - the least you could do is make a bit of effort'

The problem lies in that parents are working FT and often have other commitments in the evenings (or work during those hours).

Ha! being asked to make a tray of cupcakes for the following day is getting off lightly. 14 years ago, all the parents mothers of our female final year primary school pupils were sent a red pillowcase to make a Bugsy Malone dress for their child for the leaving show! I kid you not! A red pillowcase! That 'request' did make me laugh.

It's the short notice that gets me. For example, two days' notice for volunteers to drive to a football match where the astro turf pitch requires pre-booking well ahead.

I have a reasonable degree of flexibility in my diary, and can make pretty much anything with 6 weeks' notice. However with less that two weeks' notice my diary is full. If school even sent a lust of possible/tentative dates half-termly that would help, as I could protect that time in advance.

My issue was the lack of notice. One year we got a full schedule at the start of the year and it was amazing. I was able to plan and move things around and meant I wasn’t using so much holiday. Never happened again.

The worst thing they did was hold an ‘open classroom’ one Friday at 1.30pm which meant looking at schoolbooks for 5 minutes and then taking your child home early. Not a problem for me as not a day I worked but definitely felt like a trick to get rid of the kids.
On Monday they tell us there is a performance on that Friday. One of the mums was so upset as she couldn’t ask for another Friday off and her daughter had a staring part AND the teacher had a veiled go at her for not coming. It was a shitty thing to do.
They had form for doing this kind of thing. 2 days notice for school shows etc. It’s ignorant not to recognise others have jobs too.

I honestly think there can't be many teachers like that. Most teachers I know have worked in different industries before teaching or had jobs when training.

I can mumsnet from my phone at my desk in my office. So unless the school does sports day under my desk then it's quite different.

Obviously not. But there may well be non-working parents, or parents who are off on these days who can help. If you can't help you can't help. They are not saying every parent must help, they only need a couple.

You don't need to make any excuse if you can't help. It's like people answering Amazon questions with "sorry, I don't know" Just don't answer!

Lots of working parents do manage to attend appointments during school hours. Not everyone has a job that can accommodate, but many do.

Schools know ...most teachers are parents too. They don't expect you to attent they just offer the possibility that you can

If they did everything in the evening then they wouldn't be able to see their own children ;)

...including teachers, but as we know it's not always possible to take time away from a physical workplace and attend a different venue.

@Threetulips - my job is flexible! I just can’t take the best part of a day and a half off with so little notice. And to expect that of parents is ridiculous. Why not have half the school in the morning and half in the afternoon? Three events for 7 year groups over three days is madness. The PTA are also going mad trying to recruit helpers for the various tea and coffee stands. Unsurprisingly, no one wants to help as they’ll all be rushing off to work after. Proper planning would have given a day in the diary at the start of the academic year and I would have gladly booked it off. As it is, none of my children will have anyone watching them next week.

What does give and take mean though? Don’t primary teachers already do their fair share of giving when they give up time in their non directed hours to do things like sports matches, parents evening, play productions PTA disco/summer fete/Christmas bazaar etc?

Its not reasonable to expect them to do more for the convenience of parents. Of course it benefits children for their parents to go to meetings about them, that’s why parents should make time to go. It’s about their child. Teachers have their own families to accommodate.

Parents are entitled to unpaid parental leave that they can use if they feel it’s important enough. Parental leave needs to be made more flexible so that it can be taken in days rather than weeks for it to help parents the most, but employers can choose to be more flexible with it if they want to and as long as it’s not detrimental to business, they should be. Maybe that’s the solution.

I just can’t take the best part of a day and a half off with so little notice

Then don’t!

DDs sports day bans parents - sue to fight one year over who came first - I’d guess the police. Much better all round of you ask me.