To think many schools forget that lots of mums work?

[malificent7]

In primary school it was almost a given that they scheduled things in the school day which is understandable but a bit sad that when i was teaching myself, i couldn't get time off for sports day etc.

In secondary school I was chatying to a mum friend who was asked to go to a meeting during school time. She can't...she works! Not a huge issue i guess and not sure how it can be solved. As an ex teacher I wouldn't have wanted to meet parents outside school hours.

It’d be considered pretty normal to take a day off or half day for things like sports days or an important meeting.

I’d hope that the school would try to schedule a meeting at the end of their working day, but definitely wouldn’t expect them to hold it at the weekend.

It drives me mad. Ours has easter egg hunts, picnics, sports days, weekly assemblies open to parents - which luckily havent reopened since covid and because enough parents said er no, we work, church services, performances, car boot sales, all either in school day or just before normal school pick up which is bloody early enough at 3. Some is great for the kids but if you cant go to lots of them, you feel its the kids that have working parents that must feel a bit different. plus 189 emails since september last year. REallty??

DD went to a private primary for various reasons (deprived northern town fees £5000 a year) one massive perk I’d not appreciated was how working parent friendly they were as all parents worked. It had an old fashioned vibe. No random dress up days. Costumes for plays and nativity they provided - brown leotard with a paper mask would be a reindeer, rabbit etc. Lots of notice of events. Children not sent home at drop
of hat with tummy ache. One snowy day they were only school in town open. I had workmates with kids at local state schools and they were always faffing about.
Part was attitude and part was due to more generous staffing ratios so no need for volunteers.

Notice. Notice is what we are asking for.

I do completely get this; I said in my pp upthread that I agreed that schools should publish key dates well in advance and stick to an agreed schedule as far as possible.

The trouble is that quite often a fixed schedule isn’t possible. A fixed date is fairly doable for the ‘big’ events like Sports’ Day (although even that is highly dependent on favourable weather), but schools are operating under such fluid conditions, with so many different variables, that it’s inevitable that events are often subject to last minute change or cancellation. Will the school hall be available at that time (many schools are hugely cramped and accommodating all the kids is a logistical feat in itself)?; Will the visitor we’ve booked turn up? Will all the kids be there, or will half the class (or the teacher) be off due to norovirus/chicken pox/covid? Will we have enough parent volunteers to fulfil the required ratios? Will we have sufficient funding/parent engagement to go ahead?

It’s a total minefield, and as several PPs have said, there is no solution. @ArseInTheCoOpWindow is right - schools are mandated to engage with their local community (surely a good thing for the children?) but, with many people’s working and living conditions as they presently are, this can prove nigh on impossible. There were countless complaints on here during the pandemic (most of which I agreed with), saying that schools were offering a joyless ‘skeleton service’, with no clubs or trips or fun events. But parents are equally up in arms when asked to volunteer to chaperone these trips, or fundraise for the fun ‘extras’, or provide a costume for a dress-up day.

It can’t work both ways. Perhaps some of these ‘extras’ are unnecessary window dressing, but there needs to be an understanding that parents either inconvenience themselves to some extent to engage with this stuff, or it just doesn’t happen, parents lower their expectations and the ‘school offer’ becomes much more minimalist and limited in scope (as per the pandemic).

I had to prioritise the ones that were most important for my child that I attended but I did feel bad not going to some, as my DS class in particular had lots of SAHM and dad's that wfh and seemed able to come to lots of events.

This comment is a case in point. Does the school continue to hold these events, making the working parents who can’t attend feel bad, or does it stop doing them, meaning that nobody gets to go and the children miss that particular experience? Either way someone loses out.

I don't really understand why it isn't an option to call at lunchtime

You really don't understand why that's not an option? Really?

I wouldn't mind volunteering for specific things in school if needed (I work shifts so have some weekdays off or would be happy to even use leave occasionally) but as others have said, the late notice makes it tricky. I can see why logistically it isn't always possible to give a tonne of notice, but even save the dates or making it clear it could change would help people plan. Between me and DH we have managed to go to most of the 'big' events so far like sports days.

I do feel that teachers and schools are considered by some parents as indentured servants. I work with a few people who - despite having the most generous family friendly policies ever, and attending everything such some weeks it feels that they're barely in the office - are constantly complaining that the teachers don't arrange everything to be completely convenient for working parents. Yet they expect teachers to work through their lunch breaks and hold events during times in which they're unpaid. There seems to be little interest in the kids or the welfare/needs of the people who are trying so hard to educate and provide a lovely environment for the kids, it's all about what's easiest for them.

Is it really normal that a school would have weekly assemblies for parents to attend? Or would invite parents to an assembly of their child was going to get a certificate? That seems like way too much!

Maybe schools put too much emphasis on all these extras that never were a thing in times gone by? Does it enrich the curriculum as much as they like to think?

One of the 'wins' of the pandemic was going 'online' for parents' evenings. So much less stressful and more flexible really.

My child getting an award is clearly something that's important enough for me to want to attend. It doesn't mean all parents can usually arrange this with 24hr notice.

I'm a single working mum and actually i find evening appointments much more difficult because I'm negotiating two small children on my own. I wfh and find appointments in the middle of the day much easier to get to because my children are in school/preschool and my work is flexible enough that I can take an hour or so out of the day and make it up another time. I've got a meeting this evening at school and have had to arrange a babysitter. I'm not complaining at all, just saying that it's different for everyone.

It drives me mad. Ours has easter egg hunts, picnics, sports days, weekly assemblies open to parents - which luckily havent reopened since covid and because enough parents said er no, we work, church services, performances, car boot sales, all either in school day or just before normal school pick up which is bloody early enough at 3. Some is great for the kids but if you cant go to lots of them, you feel its the kids that have working parents that must feel a bit different. plus 189 emails since september last year.

Again, what is the alternative model? If it is to be that none of this stuff happens - fine in theory and obviously more convenient for working parents - then how is the school (which like most state schools is probably severely underfunded) going to raise the money it needs? And how are the children going to be given meaningful opportunities to become part of the wider community in which they are growing up?

If we do indeed want a low-parental engagement, ‘back to basics’ model, with school becoming a place that only offers basic childcare and education (which would also probably be much less stressful for the teachers), then we need to accept that all the ‘nice to haves’ like trips and author/theatre visits and clubs and music groups will fall by the wayside, and the gap will either need to be made up for by parents, or (in less advantaged families) not accessed by the children at all.

In this light of this and the also currently active ‘What’s happened to volunteering?’ thread, it sounds like a proper debate on this is long overdue.

I’m not entirely sure what some people on this thread are asking for

Plenty of notice and clearly stated requirments - and possibly depending on the school fewer overall number of events.

I know my Dmum went to thinks in the 80s - as school we went to didn't want younger siblings at events - which was frequnetly very akward. I've not had that with my DC schools they have been understanding about younger siblings and often welcoming.

It is school dependent the DC secondary is dire with communication - but there is less overall. I do wish they'd phone in order listed - it's always my mobile first despiet kids saying DH may be easier to contact.

The school always going to do most things in school hours - but there are ways of making that easier for parents to accomodate - but I think many schools have other prioritises.

One school my DC went to massive improved with a new receptiomn staff member - she put all the known dates on a caladener and did a months news letter with them on - massively improved parental attendance. Prior to that it was often last minute text messages which frequnetly raised more questions as there was an assumption of knowlege that hadn't been given to parental body.

DS school did this before covid, thankfully it hasn't reared its head since! It just created more work for teachers and lots of upset children who didn't fully understand why x's parent was there and there's wasn't.

Also I don't attend all the non compulsory stuff.
My youngest had a jubilee party at preschool a couple of weeks ago which I couldn't go to. I'm not offended or annoyed that I couldn't go plus i do think it's good for children to learn that their parents can't come to everything. It's not expected that all parents can go to these things, it's an invitation not a summons

Yes, this! I can cope with pre-requested meetings taking place during hours as I can accommodate those in a similar way to a doctor's appointment or getting my boiler fixed. But the complete lack of understanding that changing times at short notice is infuriating. Our school's favourite is to offer some kind of activity or club or whatever but not to let you know if you have got a place until the day before and/or to not provide details until the day before. So if you're working/have other kids etc, it lands up getting ridiculously complex as you try to work out how you juggle it all with almost no notice.

They're always banging on about how they get 98% attendance for parents "evening" (it's afternoon/early evening) and I always feel like I should point out that they announce parents evening dates about 6 weeks ahead and then open the booking 4 weeks ahead... so miraculously, people can sort their lives out.

They gave us the extra jubilee holiday day last October.... announced it a month before. Was a complete nightmare.

Is it really normal that a school would have weekly assemblies for parents to attend? Or would invite parents to an assembly of their child was going to get a certificate? That seems like way too much

But there is no obligation to attend, and no one will think any less of you if you don’t. The child will still get the certificate in front of all their teachers and peers. The school is probably only asking because some parents actively want to come, and would complain if they weren’t invited.

And weekly class assemblies have been a thing since I was a kid in the 1980s and throughout my entire primary teaching career to the present day. It’s not every class every week; it’s once or twice a year on a rota basis, and again not compulsory for parents to attend (mine often didn’t).

Is it really normal that a school would have weekly assemblies for parents to attend?

It was brought in at DC first primary - some parents spoke to the head - school was good at listening and it became once a term with notice.

@rainbowmilk - I am public sector too. I take 30 minutes for my lunch. It is law that you must take 30 minutes break after 6 hours work.

At DS school the children have 1 hour lunch break where they are in the care of TAs and playground supervisors not teachers. i don't think it unreasonable to suggest 15-20 minutes of this time could be used for phone calls should no other time available providing that the teacher gets a full 30 minutes break.

There seems to be little interest in the kids or the welfare/needs of the people who are trying so hard to educate and provide a lovely environment for the kids, it's all about what's easiest for them

Really struck me, when we were recently looking at primary schools for DD, that at every school we visited the first (and in some cases only) question asked by the prospective parents was what the wraparound care offer was and how early DC could be dropped off in the morning/how late they could be collected.

It’s important, of course it is, and parents need to know this stuff - but the relative lack of curiously about the actual education provided, curriculum content, pupil wellbeing, safeguarding, opportunities on offer etc really surprised me.

The children have 1 hour lunch break, that doesn't mean that the teachers do. They are often in meetings, lesson planning, etc. Yes it would be unreasonable of you to expect a 20 minute phone call at lunchtime.

I agree, OP. I made a rod for my own back slightly be wanting to be more involved than my own parents had been at school, with helping out with school events and being on the PTA for a few years. But even without that I thought that the basic requirements for parental involvement were far more than 30 years previously, when my mum was very much the odd one out in working full time.

It’s important, of course it is, and parents need to know this stuff - but the relative lack of curiously about the actual education provided, curriculum content, pupil wellbeing, safeguarding, opportunities on offer etc really surprised me

I would never have thought about pupil wellbeing or safeguarding as an issue before my kids started school, and curriculum, education, opportunities I would assume to be standard across most primaries in a particular area, they certainly ought to be. Anyone can read about the national curriculum content online so I'm not sure why they would be asking about the education being provided. What I was looking for when visiting schools was the overall gut feel of the place and I would certainly want information about wrap around care if both parents are working, huge priority. I only actually looked at our nearest primary school, less than ten minutes' walk away, and provided they weren't turning children into the next Hitler youth, that would be the one they were going to.

It’s all very well saying “school isn’t childcare” but for low income families accessing UC the system clearly considers that it is, as parents are expected to be working 25+ hours per week once their children reach school age.
I also agree with many on this thread that notice - eg a newsletter with key dates at the start of each term - would make a huge difference to parental engagement (which is a win-win for schools and families surely?)

Also I knew loads of kids and parents of kids already at the school and knew they liked it - that's the sort of info parents go on to make their decisions. Not some waffly and polished answers by the head to questions about safeguarding.