AIBU to think it's cruel to force a toddler to sit on the loo

[Sheesh89]

I have posted before about my DS1 possibly having ASD and the difficulty I have with my DH not engaging/being difficult/awful.

My DS is 3 (only just) he going to pre school in Sep and its expected before he starts that he's toilet trained. We started yesterday, bye to the nappies, hello cool duggee pants.

He absolutely hates it. Literally hitting us every time we take him to the loo when he starts weeing. He has done it a few times in the loo but while sobbing. DH is sitting on the floor of the loo refusing to let DS off until he wees. So he is complying but it's so bloody traumatising.

Anyway I've said we are going too hard-core and it's awful. DH is now refusing to engage and saying "you bloody do it then" and basically saying I'm too soft and he won't be able to go to pre school because we are bringing up some "backwards, spoilt, kid"

I get that if we don't push DS he won't do anything ever. He refuses to do so much tidy toys, pick up clothes but also he was sobbing and totally out of control. Begging for his nappies. I think having the toilet brush thrown at me was a particular low point

Am I being soft? Does it need to be this drastic? Or is DH being awful? I feel so bloody confused. I just want to do the right thing by my DS but I feel like I'm not protecting him but then if neither of pushed DS he would just eat crisps and live in nappies until he was 8

I feel absolutely done in.

If the weather is nice can you go in the garden with bottoms off. Most kids love this and it's less stressful for everyone if a bit of wee goes on the lawn, nobody has to worry about carpets or sofas getting soiled etc! Pop the potty out there and if you spot wee coming out get excited and say 'oooh a wee, great, hop on the potty!' with a big smile and if so much as one drop gets in that potty that is a success!

Btw OP, I don’t care if my suggestion that you and your husband attend parenting classes offended you. It’s your child that I’m concerned about, not your feelings.

You have time, but it’s good you are starting the process to get him assessed for ASD. I haven’t heard of the NHS not accepting private diagnoses from registered British psychologists.

On the pressure, our DC had similar. It was anything presented to them without a choice they could make to assert some control over the situation. So obviously some things have to happen, but you can still engineer choices in there like brush teeth before or after your bath? Do you want peas or carrots? Do you want Teddy or Bunny for story time and bed? Try and think of ways to present choices to mask the fact that you must go to bed now. Or you must eat your veg.

How am I villainizing my DS? That's a very hurtful thing to say. I'm not blaming him at all. I'm blaming myself and my DH. Saying he doesn't like pressure is just a statement of fact...so I need to get better at removing pressure in all situations...I get that i need to do better but I won't accept that I'm villainzing him. People have already said I sound too permissive.

@Sheesh89 you’re on a hiding to nothing trying to bend the world to your DS rather than the other way around. Let’s say you remove “all pressure” from him, what happens at nursery/school/the park? He will be totally ill-equipped to deal with any situation which doesn’t go his way

Absolutely terrible advice, especially re potty training. We should not be pressuring children. Children who are confident and nurtured do better in difficult situations, not children who’ve been thrown in at the deep end before they’re ready.

@PinkSyCo the suggestion of parenting classes didn't offend me. We all have stuff to learn. I just said it felt a bit rough. But I'll look into it. Thanks.

I'll pass your concerns onto my son. He'll be delighted to know you're thinking of him.

When my son started nursery at age three I was told that he had to be toilet trained. I tried but he just wasn't interested and wasn't trained on nursery start day. I decided to send him in wearing a nappy and hope they wouldn't notice. Turned out there was other kids still in nappies too and it was fine, they just asked that I provide the nappies, bag wipes and nappy bags. When DS was three and a half the nursery suggested toilet training and they were great at getting DS trained at nursery.

I would do some digging around and see if it would be okay to send him in nappies to start with. My DS got interested when he saw the other kids at nursery using the toilet and eventually wanted to join in and have a go himself.

I appreciate you have had a lot of ideas here and I haven't read them all so this may have already been covered but if not, here's mine! I've recently toilet trained my 3yo.

You need to make it fun. We bought him a small toilet potty that went in the bathroom and he sat on it when we did...often fully clothed and in his nappy but just to get him used to it When it was time to take pull ups away, we gave him a funny dance and told him what to say when he needed to go. He found it hilarious and I think it actually found it easy to tell us as it was funny. We would sometimes read a book on the toilet or sit and just chat. We gave lots of praise when he had been. Nobody shouted at him even when he insisted on sitting there for a frustratingly long amount of time!

If I were you, I would actually have a break for a couple of weeks, let him forget about it and introduce it in a calmer way with a potty. We bought a mini portable urinal for being out and about if no toilet around which has been very handy.

You are coming out with statements such as ‘DH got angry because DS hit him so hard and threw the loo steps at him,’ that make me feel that you are justifying your husband’s cruel behaviour. Your DS is a tiny child who is lashing out because he is scared. Your husband is a grown man, who should be able to control his emotions (especially in his line of work and with a potentially autistic child) And seriously, how hard can a just turned 3 year old hit someone anyway?

I toilet trained my dd who has asd. It was difficult and a bit upsetting. I was glad we did it though. We started a bit later, around 4 years I think. She had a little potty chair. I think the problem in your approach is the insisting he stays there until he wees. We gave my dd loads to drink and encouraged her to sit on the potty very frequently. She did not particularly like it. There were tears and lots of wet pants. I would persevere but in a less stressful way. I also would not be doing it just so he can go to the pre school. It should be something he is readyish for. There may not ever be a perfect time though and it is undoubtedly easier to do before he goes to school. The main reason I say this is that school won't do the training for you even special schools are very unwilling to do it. Why? Because it is time consuming, messy and difficult. Often, kids who are not trained, remain untrained either because their needs are so complex that they cannot do it or because it is too difficult for parents and carers to manage. Children with asd do get aggressive and upset when challenged to do things they find uncomfortable. Sometimes, you do have to decide what is worth this upset and what isn't, both for you and for them.

@Skyeheather that's v helpful. It says on the registration form "we expected children to be fully toilet trained. If this is an issue, please speak to your key worker before your start date"
So maybe I just speak to them and say its still a work in progress and if they respond with no empathy or support then it's not the place for us anyway

I’m going to admit I haven’t read the whole thread properly - Ds aged 9 with severe asd isn’t letting me! - but just to say if your ds has asd then the school needs to make adjustments and you need to apply for an ehcp to get him the support he needs and that may include an intimate care plan to facilitate him wearing nappies for longer. My ds wore nappies until he was 5 and then he just got it and they were off in a week. If you carry on like this you’ll completely traumatise him and probably completely put him off using the toilet altogether.

Independent schools are well known for being absolutely dreadful when it comes to helping children with special needs. Look at other schools.

Your poor boy, being forced to sit on the toilet is cruel and is going to increase whatever worries he had about using the toilet in the first place.

You are meant to bring a child up, not break his spirit. I really feel for the little mite.

@PinkSyCo I was just giving context, honestly I'm really really not trying to justify DH losing his temper. Its unacceptable. I've been reading "there's no such thing as naughty" book about under 5 kids and I really try to parent compassionately. I should have stepped in earlier with DH and DH was making me feel like I was being useless and ridiculous..hence me coming on MN to sense check myself. All I care about is my DC, if DH doesn't get himself in check asap, I will leave him. My loyalty is to my DC.

Definitely speak to the key worker, it felt like a highly kept secret that they would take them still in nappies when DS started. It's probably easier for them if as many as possible are trained before they start but it's normal for boys to be harder to train and take longer.

@PinkSyCo Sorry. Just frazzled on 5 hours sleep with 1 year old and 3 year old and a shitty DH and a ton of work to do. Sorry.

Agree @ForestFae . The children who are comfortable and confident in new situations are those who have been nurtured and supported when little and whose 'safe adults' have been there for them when they're finding everything a bit too much. In the OP's case, her DC may always going to need a little bit of extra support (I've heard people refer to it as 'scaffolding') to cope with situations that other children may not be phased by, but he may absolutely thrive if given the right support early enough. It's not about bending the world to him, but about being realistic about what he can cope with and equipping him with additional tools to help him cope in the world as it is.

Burn you with fire? You’ve literally just said the exact same thing everyone else has said. Nobody is saying anything different.

Forcing a toddler to sit on the loo is not just cruel, it is counter-productive and your OH needs to get a grip.

It is annoying when a child does not do what we want, when you know that physically they are able. But your OH needs to understand that it is not as simple as that and, as with many stages in parenting, the only thing to do is to try and look at it from the child's point pf view. From his very first moments of consciousness, he has had a nappy on - it is like an arm or a leg to him - he has never known anything different. Suddenly it is whipped away and a whole new life is forced on him.

First of all, you must stop his toilet training completely right now and leave it for several months. It is now associated in his mind with trauma and he will fight every inch of the way. Continuing with it now will be damaging and unproductive. Your OH needs to know this.

When you decide to reintroduce it, do it in a low-key way. Get out the potty and just leave it around. After a few days, sit a doll/human toy on it and say "Oh look, X is doing a wee!" .... small things like this re-introduce the concept in an unthreatening way. Talk about it - "I need a poo; can you come with me and hand me the toilet paper?" You really are going to have to go softly softly now. It has become a battle and hard work will be needed to dispel that negative aura.

How you get your OH onside with that I do not know and I really feel for you.

Looking at it from the child's point of view again - how would we like to be suddenly forced to clamber onto a vast receptacle that is waist height and sit there waiting to be sucked under by the swirling water which goes who knows where? You need some discussion about how a toilet works; or stick to the potty for now.

I am not helping you one bit with your pre-school dilemma - but you will get nowhere and cause psychological trauma to continue to pursue it now. Stand back, take a pause and start again later. Talk gently about it after a pause, and do not rush in with a total no-pants regime. Find some good books where children are seen sitting on the toilet - read them along with his other books - sow the seeds gently before actually taking any action.

I find it shocking he’s got such awful views about children with sen and asd when he’s a secondary school teacher! Wtf!

I don’t think you sound too permissive. I think sometimes, especially when they are the “big brother”, it can be easy to forget that just turned 3 is really very little. He’s already had a lot going on in his three years, lockdown (presumably not the same chances to socialise) and a new baby brother. You are doing the right thing speaking to the GP. How does your dh feel about the possibility of SN’s. I know mine finds it very difficult to accept.

The private nursery may suit him very well but you need to visit it, find out how they feel and what experience they have of children with additional needs. A nursery that refuses to take them until toilet trained wouldn’t be the right one for me. My boys all went to different nurseries as they each had different needs.

My ds1 and ds2 were both toilet trained by two and a half. Ds2 was dry day and night from then. I thought I must be pretty good at it! Then came ds3. Several failed attempts by me, supported by my very experienced childminder, and off he went to nursery in pull-ups. He was almost three and a half before he “got it” and 7 before he was dry at night. He does have ASD but is, academically, very bright. They are all different.

In your shoes, I would back off, go back to pull-ups and try again in 4-6 weeks with a potty or little kiddy toilet. You could try reading stories about potty training with him. We had “I love my potty” but I know there’s a few different ones.

…….And remember, no one knows your son better than you do. He will get there in his own time. I hope you can get your dh on board. Good luck.

What do you do when your son frequently hits you?

Also, your husband sounds like a shit teacher.

Toilet trainings my child with ASD was nothing like training my NT child. Firstly he just wasn't ready until much older (nearly 4 vs 2.5), and when he did finally train it had to be very much on his terms. It might be worth reading about PDA, it's a type of autism where the person finds the stress of been told to do something (having a demand placed on them) is triggering. DS's profile includes some aspects of this, which came out very strongly during toilet training.

With DS what worked was giving he lots of incentives, choices and logical reasons, then been really hands off. We initially got him on bord by showing him that the nappies in the shop cost the same as a dinosaur magazine he wanted, telling him we only had money for one and letting him choose. Then at home we gave him as many choices as possible (eg. Potty/toilet/tree in the garden (very popular), standing up/sitting, naked/just pants/trousers).

Once we'd agreed what he'd do, we offered a treat when he managed, then left him to it. That was really hard to do, sometimes I would see him dancing or straining and knew there was likely to be an accident, but had to stop myself from saying anything. Like with your DS, trying to take him would result is complete refusal, even it he'd been planning on taking himself before I mentioned it.

Not sure any of that would actually help with you DS, but wanted to make the point that with SEN children, what 'should' work often doesn't, it doesn't mean your doing it wrong, it just means your walking a much harder path.