AIBU to think it's cruel to force a toddler to sit on the loo

[Sheesh89]

I have posted before about my DS1 possibly having ASD and the difficulty I have with my DH not engaging/being difficult/awful.

My DS is 3 (only just) he going to pre school in Sep and its expected before he starts that he's toilet trained. We started yesterday, bye to the nappies, hello cool duggee pants.

He absolutely hates it. Literally hitting us every time we take him to the loo when he starts weeing. He has done it a few times in the loo but while sobbing. DH is sitting on the floor of the loo refusing to let DS off until he wees. So he is complying but it's so bloody traumatising.

Anyway I've said we are going too hard-core and it's awful. DH is now refusing to engage and saying "you bloody do it then" and basically saying I'm too soft and he won't be able to go to pre school because we are bringing up some "backwards, spoilt, kid"

I get that if we don't push DS he won't do anything ever. He refuses to do so much tidy toys, pick up clothes but also he was sobbing and totally out of control. Begging for his nappies. I think having the toilet brush thrown at me was a particular low point

Am I being soft? Does it need to be this drastic? Or is DH being awful? I feel so bloody confused. I just want to do the right thing by my DS but I feel like I'm not protecting him but then if neither of pushed DS he would just eat crisps and live in nappies until he was 8

I feel absolutely done in.

Have you tried him with a potty, rather than the toilet? My son loved his dinosaur potty so it was much easier to get him to sit on it. He's been potty-trained (ish) since February and still isn't keen on using the toilet, and won't do it at all without a child seat.

We found rewards worked best, I tried without but he just wasn't interested. Thomas sticker for a wee, chocolate button for a poo. Lots of cheering and praise when he gets it right. Try very hard not to look fed up when he doesn't. Be cheerful throughout. It's hard work but I really don't think your DH's method is the answer.

My DD wouldn't have gone near the big toilet at all during potty training. Have you tried potties in a normal room? We had one in DD's playroom and another for upstairs. The big toilet can be really scary, even with a padded seat, etc.

But it sounds horribly stressful already and I doubt you'll make any good progress if there is crying and screaming and this level of angst already. It should be no pressure, positive, make it an exciting thing. Not forcing a little boy to sit sobbing until he pees and particularly if he does have ASD then he genuinely might just not be ready. And I wouldn't stand by and let my husband treat our child like that or talk about him like that either.

Ooh yes these are good too.

Omg my heart broke for your little boy reading that. You are traumatising the poor thing! He must feel so scared. Have you tried a potty? Letting him watch his favourite tv show or reading to him while he sits on it for a few minutes every couple of hours or so. If he does a wee, lots of praise and clapping. Make potty training a positive experience for him, not a frightening one.

He's not ready. My ds was 3.5 before we even began potty training we waited until he was ready and it happened straight away no accidents into pants done. He is also autistic.
I think you need to communicate with the pre school what happens if he's not toilet trained as you can't go on as you are, it's not fair on your ds or yourselves.
I know other additional needs children still in nappies at school, no amount of forcing a child especially with asd will work i
Afraid, speak to your HV or doctor for some tips or a referral for the ASD

OP you have 2 issues here- 1 is your son potty training and 2 is your DH's behaviour. If a kid is screaming, frightened of the toilet then you go back to the drawing board and try again in a week or two with a different approach or work through it with rewards/ bribes/ changing the tactics. If your DH is making it a battle of wills and doing something as disgusting and aggressive as throwing toilet brushes it's going to create more of a problem than it's solving. Whether your child has ASD or not your DH's approach is going to create BIG issues around toileting.
Can you go back to nappies for now and work around doing it later?

Sorry if this is a really patronising question but is there a reason you’re using the loo rather than a potty? I just ask because I wanted my son to go straight from nappies to the toilet (with a toddler seat, obviously) because I thought potties were disgusting 😂 I learnt very quickly that there are reasons why potties are so popular. You can bring a potty to a child rather than the other way round. And that enables you to react much more quickly. My son hated the loo, he was scared of it.

This sounds awful and your DH sounds nasty and bullying. He is only just 3 and may have other issues going on. Leave him be.

@piecesofham

I think the little boy is the one who threw the toilet brush? If it was the DH of course that’s a huge issue!

Your husband needs to go on a parenting course. He's traumatizing your child. Also have you and your husband been checked for autism? www.aane.org/sensitivity-to-criticism-advice-for-parents/

opendoorstherapy.com/autism-and-trauma-masking/

Honestly op this sounds very traumatic for your toddler. Get a portable potty and have son naked from waist down in house. Everytime he starts to wee put him on that potty. That's how I trained my boy. Took a few days. Don't expect him to be potty trained in poos though, mine starts pre school in September and still asking for a nappy to poop in.

The more traumatic the experience is the worse you're making it. So to answer no I don't think you're being too soft. Husband is being too unrealistic and harsh in this. You got this

Also a potty reward chart with stickers worked really well for us

Yes we have a step and a toddler seat on the loo. He often comes in with me when I'm on the loo to chat to me so I didn't think he would find it so scary. I've been talking to him about the loo for weeks and being a "big boy". But when we started he just jumped off and then would wee on the floor so my DH started saying "you can't get off the loo DS I know you need to wee" and that's when the tears started and the battle begun. And I stepped in and told him to give him a break and then of course DS peed on the floor and DH got angry at me. DH blames me because he says if we just insist on it he'll soon get used to it. DS fell asleep with me stroking the back of his neck tonight and spent the last hour of the day being tickled and playing chase. I am so so affectionate. But I feel shame that I have stood by while DS was upset earlier today as DH shouted at me to back off

Definitely DS who threw the loo brush. Not DH!

Will he go on a potty to start with? DS was a nightmare to potty train and I had a wide range of different potties. He preferred a plastic jug to wee in or to nip out to the garden.
he will wee on the loo now but will not use public loos.
it just took time and my ds wasn’t ready at 3.

OP was concerned about SEN.
Some children especially those with SEN really struggle with the sensation of actually going to the loo. Some children find it a sensory overload.

OP sounds like your son isn’t ready. My advice would be not to send to that pre school but look for one that would suit his needs best.

Ahh you poor thing, I completely get it. We were in exactly the same boat as you. My son was starting pre school and we had a summer to get him out of nappies and it was a nightmare!! I remember many times pinning him to the toilet and him being distraught.

He never entertained a potty and would scream and hit out if I tried to even lift him on the toilet.

I decided to just take off his nappies and put underwear on him and he would cry and beg me to give him a nappy/pull up as he needed to go but didn’t want to go to the toilet. He would hold it and dance about begging me.

Somehow one day it clicked, but after I tried everything. iPad on toilet, blowing bubbles, Reward charts, I would actually let him put on a pull up as long as he sat on the toilet to do it. Then high five him and make such a huge deal if he managed it!

We got through it within about 6 weeks but it felt like he was never going to do it. He is 6 now and told me one day he didn’t want to go on the big toilet because he was scared of falling down. Even though I had a child seat securely on? Maybe check he feels safe and reassure him you’ve got a tight hold.

Try not to stress he will get there! Fingers crossed

We have a potty so will use that instead tomorrow.

DH persuaded me for a second that he is resisting because he doesn't want to do anything he's told to...but I feel ashamed of that now. I just know reward charts etc don't work with him and he doesn't mind being wet so hard to know how to persuade

You say you "started yesterday" and already expect him to use the toilet? That's crazy. Also you are sending DS to private kindrgarten because your DP works there. Is your DP a teacher and is this a school rather than a preschool where you can pick and choose hours? Is that why he's expected to be toilet trained? Alarming that DP is getting angry 24hrs after starting potty training. Get a couple of pottys and take DSs bottoms off and go from there.

Have you thought how easy you’d find it to do a wee on command while sobbing, angry, scared, struggling to communicate, trying to balance on a narrow ledge above a noisy whirlpool while being watched by an unkind adult? Not to mention that he’s only learning bladder control and probably has all sorts of sensory stuff going on.

Honestly, back off. I toilet trained my child with ASD who at one point I was convinced would go to school in nappies - force or upset would have made it worse. You just cannot make them use the toilet, you have to figure out how to get them on board or just leave it for now. We rewarded every tiny step - use the nappy in the bathroom? Get a reward. Use the nappy sitting on a potty? Reward. Sit on the toilet fully clothed? Reward. Tell me you need the toilet even if you don’t do anything? Reward. Wee in the potty/toilet? Huge reward. He chose potties, seats, steps, pants, books, he picked the day we started - he needed to be in control and go at his pace. We blew bubbles, took toys, read endless books, played games… he needed to be relaxed. Getting off the toilet and immediately going on the floor is par for the course, even my typical child did that a few times. Set backs are normal, it’s not necessarily a linear process.

It took a year before he was completely out of nappies during the day, he didn’t even start until past 3 and yes it was frustrating and demoralising but he was a tiny and scared child. You can’t force it, you just can’t. Your DH sounds very unpleasant and unkind.

And if preschool can’t handle the thought of a 3 year old in nappies they are the wrong setting for a child with suspected autism.

Maybe take a totally different approach. You mention a potential ASD element and as far as I can tell reward charts aren't actually that helpful with the ND.

We broke it down gently for our DS. He followed us to the loo and I commented on the fact I was weeing. Then when he was in the bath he'd always pee so I talked about it then and built.it up from there. We never asked him all the time if he needed the loo, and followed his lead.

Have you tried picture charts for routines? First one brush teeth, second toilet ect... It can take some of the pressure off the transitions.

Lastly when I used to sit him on the loo we would count 1, 2 3 pee over and over and tried to get him to focus on that rather than expecting him to wee. Seemed to keep his mind off the scary.

Personally I'd persist with it but in a nicer approach. Go shopping with DC to:

• Select their own potty (or get stickers to decorate an existing potty)
• Select their own rewards, e.g sweets/stickers
• Select the hand soap or wipes

Take all bottoms off your DS and initiate lots of garden play (to save your carpets!). Put teddies/toys on the potty and make it a part of the play games. Start small-scale e.g. big rewards for just sitting on potty, progress up to sitting on potty for 30 seconds, progress up to trying to do a wee (extra rewards if any comes out) and continue this approach until the potty becomes a positive thing and the rewards are given for the actual potty use. If they have an accident, sit them on the potty and give a small reward to remind them it's ok to use the potty but ensure they know the big rewards come from using it for the wee or poo.

Our DS knew potty meant sweets so within days he wanted to sit on it for a sweet. Prior to this he didn't like it and was scared of it. It's a big transition for any child let alone one with potential ASD.

All I'd say in relation to the ASD is take it slowly and give a lot of prewarning, e.g. "tomorrow DS we are going to get a sticker if we sit on the potty for 30 seconds. We will be trying that tomorrow. Can you repeat to me how we get the reward tomorrow?" Don't try to rush each stage if one is going well as ASD children typically thrive from routine and need warning about changes ahead of time. Your DS might like to have a regular potty time each day so setting alarms could be another method to support with the transition.

Fingers crossed for you. It's the best thing once you've cracked it and no more nappies!

Started yesterday in the sense that we started using pants yesterday morning but been prepping for it e.g. Reading him books. DH got angry because DS hit him so hard and threw the loo steps at him. DH is apologising for getting angry this evening but still seems to think we need to force him somewhat.

I get told how soft I am the whole time by my family...cuddling DS to comfort him after he's thrown his dinner at the wall, remaining calm when DS kicks me...and now I feel like I'm a dragon reading thus thread. I have clearly underestimated how scary this would be for DS though. Expected lots of accidents but not flat out refusal.

Your husband is an insensitive bully. I would not be sending a child of mine to a pre school that he worked in.

Your 'DH' sounds like a nasty bully.

My NT, incredibly bright and articulate flat out refused to potty train till she was nearly 3.5. Training was done and dusted in 3 days. When they are ready it should be straightforward

I’ve just written a really long post and and it vanished but short version - my DC1 was hugely resistant to toilet training despite showing signs of readiness from 2.5. We had to toilet train him around 3 yrs 3 months as he was withholding bowel movements and we needed to eliminate a physical cause for this (the issue in question vanished as soon as he was trained). It goes against my instincts to be child-led, but DC1 is the kind of child who is reluctant to move to the next stage and generally needs a gentle push. Toilet training was no exception!

He consistently refused a potty and we had no downstairs loo. So I bought a mini toilet, with a removable lidded basin type thing, and that worked really well - I think it was comfier for him and also easier to carry upstairs for disposal of contents.

I don’t remember exactly how we went about it but chocolate buttons may have been involved - reward charts never really worked with DC1- and he was day dry within a week or two, and naturally night dry without any intervention shortly after he was four.

What I would say is, do not let this become a Thing or it may become quite entrenched. And if he has ASD, he may be slower to get the hang of it - DC1 still has some toileting issues at six. Your DH needs to calm down and get with the programme so you’re both on the same page. You could do worse than drop it if it’s not going well after a week, and revisit later in the summer. Is he showing signs of readiness?