To encourage my dad to leave my mum

[Clementinemist]

My mum (61) has always had crippling anxiety that has severely affected my family, but its to the point now where she won't do anything or go anywhere at all. But she is constantly telling me how depressed she is, and she keeps having panic attacks and calls me at random times of the day and night. All she does is sit at home and procrastinate. She's spoken to her GP, been to all kinds of therapy, done antidepressants, pills, mindfulness, all the usual things over the past 30 odd years. The fact that she's lacking any sort of life is at the heart of her problems but she seems unable, and to be honest unwilling, to do anything about it. It's like she's got comfortable just pottering around the house and doesn't care to do anything else now. She's basically just waiting to get old and die.

I honestly don't know what to do. It sounds horrible but I'm dreading the next 30 odd years of this. It's only going to get worse. My dad has floated the idea of divorce a few times over the past year. He's 64, retired recently, wants to downsize to the coast (about an hour away) and travel the world, but mum doesn't want to. (And she doesnt want him to go either). Aibu to encourage him to leave her? Might give her the wake up call she needs? Or sink her into worse depression? It's all causing such sadness and stress in our family, I just want everyone to be happy. I honestly don't know how I can support her anymore.

In fairness there are people who have been too damaged, too deeply early on for anything to reach. They try and they try, heroically sometimes in a silent but fierce battle, but it simply isn't possible for them to engage; it's just too hard. Their future is bleak and it's just so unfair that some people have no chance.

I disagree with this, I absolutely think recovery is possible for everyone, it’s just that sometimes, sadly, it takes a long while to find the right approach and the resource allocation in health services doesn’t always allow this to happen. Sometimes it’s not a psychiatrist / psychologist or psychotherapist / counsellor, it’s a church, or hobby group which makes a difference but because we are largely entrenched in a medical model, people look to these roles as the panacea which is unhelpful and can make the person feel worse when they don’t ‘recover’ in the way that people say they’re supposed to when they’re given treatment (6 sessions of CBT for lifelong trauma effects / complex PTSD etc)

Dad needs to live the life he wants .
I don't think OP should actively encourage him to leave his wife but most people would understand why he would . He sounds like he's done well to tolerate it all these years .

@ineedsun sadly, but some children have such terrible experiences that the brain wiring becomes changed. Extreme and prolonged stress has huge effects on adults. Same with children, though some recovery is possible with a great deal of effort and skilled intervention and support.

Fortunately most people can recover fully or to some degree but not quite everyone. I wish I could believe otherwise.

I do think that personal -choice- and drive to recover / heal counts for a huge amount. Then you need the knowledgeable people around you. The will to heal is not enough on its own, you need people who have the skill to know how to help you heal.

He doesn't need to leave her!

But he does need to start doing some things for himself.

Book a short cruise maybe with a friend. If not they have singles meet up for friendships and dining on shared tables at meal times. Always lots of people to chat to.

He must start living. But he doesn't need to divorce to do this.

Encourage him to be firm and book things himself. She has the option to go but doesn't need to.

I think why I absolutely reject the idea that the nearby people should (eventually) not allow themselves to be dragged down is because guilt tripping and loyalty and love and worry get all mixed up in it. I don't believe that anyone except your own children have the right to demand you stay around even at the cost of their own lives becoming in the long term utterly miserable and becoming deeply depressed themselves.

imw moral high-groundism, which equates someone who eventually takes the difficult step to gain some distance being A Bad Person, is nothing but guilt tripping and judgementalism intended to manipulate. Harsh words but it's what I've observed.

gah, why I reject the idea that nearby people should allow* themselves to be dragged down!

I absolutely agree with this but that once you are an adult child, even this area becomes blurry. A marriage certificate does not bind you to someone forever more, especially if one party feels their life is of poor quality and they are unhappy. I cannot believe some of the responses ‘in sickness and in health, till death do us part’

Would anyone really want a partner to stay with them out of necessity and guilt rather than love and understanding? Thr idea of this is horrifying. If someone is disabled enough to need a carer, they can look at options to get a carer. It should be a choice of whether someone chooses to give up their own freedom and autonomy to care for someone and not an obligation this is why resentment sets in.

I know about the neuroscience of trauma, I’ve worked with deeply traumatised people as a therapist for over thirty years.

I still believe that recovery is possible for everyone and that our responsibility as professionals is to have that hope and optimism even if the person doesn’t and to offer different approaches which might be more accessible and effective at some stages and with some people than others. However that’s a luxury we can afford because we’re not living with it day in and day out.

Would anyone really want a partner to stay with them out of necessity and guilt rather than love and understanding?

I agree, but I think that if you are heavily disabled it's not always quite easy to see it like that. Not all carers are much good (it's a terribly, terribly underpaid and undervalued job) and to have someone that you know and familiar with, who knows what you like, is much pleasanter than a rotating set of carers, some of whom may be not very good.

I think once you're in that situation, love can become mixed with need and discomfort/comfort. Also in depression a degree of selfishness can creep in simply because you're in a sort of pain and it reduces your ability to see beyond yourself. After 30 years that can harden into habit and perhaps the OP's mum doesn't -see- how curtailed her father's life is.

I know about the neuroscience of trauma, I’ve worked with deeply traumatised people as a therapist for over thirty years .

I still believe that recovery is possible for everyone

that's encouraging.

How far do you think that the -will- to get better is an influence? I believe it's essential but I'm not a trained therapist with experience!

will, or willingness

So no-one can ever, ever say "I've had enough, I can't cope?"

Gosh what empathy.

Incredibly important and that’s where we come back to the reasons people may fear moving on. Sometimes it’s as straightforward as not feeling safe enough to be vulnerable enough to let change in, sometimes it’s the dynamics around expectations around change.

sometimes it’s the dynamics around expectations around change.

would that be for instance about having to make changes in your life, eg not letting yoruself be treated badly by family?

I wonder with some people I've met if they get addicted to anger and the adrenaline rush and don't want to let go of it

Maybe but also the other way; if I’m better will people’s expectations of me change? Will I be able to cope? Anger is often a defence mechanism, if we let go of that we feel vulnerable. It’s bloody hard for people.

With my DM, it’s a reluctance to do the work needed to change. It is resistance and denial that it is going to be worthwhile and that burden on her makes her avoid it. It is literally easier to do nothing than it is to do something hard - even though doing nothing has consequences. Her ideal is someone else doing it for her

she convinces herself it’s not worth her time but sometimes will say ‘I know I should… but….’

she can’t make a decision about anything at all, so much so that she will procrastinate on something for many years (buying a new item of furniture) and sometimes it’s obvious she wants me to make the decision and help her with the practical side of it but she won’t ask me for what she wants or needs, she wants me to guess and it’s very tiring. Her language is even weird, she will never say ‘oh sorry I don’t like that chair it’s not comfy can I sit somewhere else’ she would sit in the chair for the whole time and then wince, pull faces, make dramatic noises and on the way home say ‘that chair is very low down isn’t it?’

repeat this with all food you ever serve to her - what she really wants is to be at home, with her own food, her own TV, her own chair but she also complains she’s lonely and doesn’t go out anywhere.

That sounds to me like someone's who scared to speak up for herself, maybe she learned young that she's not allowed her own voice. Maybe the old traditional thing that the men's voice is more important and women have to knuckle under and put up with it and not express their wants / needs.

So she's gone for passive aggressive, read-my-mind-please-or-Ill-fuss-and-make-you-uncomfortable approaches.

That would tie in with not wanting to take responsibility for new furniture. Scared.

Thank God women have their own voices now

I don’t know where it’s happened as my grandparents were never like that or thought that. My gran worked through the war on a farm, and my grandad went to war but had great respect for women and was a charitable, nice, kind, helpful man in his family and community, they taught my DM about true hard work - but I don’t think she really ever wanted to work. she gave up having a career pretty instantly after meeting my dad then was resentful about it. it’s been 25 years after they split and she still never did anything with her life even when she had us children old enough to be left at home and only herself to please.

That sounds really frustrating and unpleasant :( I guess some people just don't want to take responsibility for themselves .,...

With my DM, it’s a reluctance to do the work needed to change. It is resistance and denial that it is going to be worthwhile and that burden on her makes her avoid it. It is literally easier to do nothing than it is to do something hard - even though doing nothing has consequences. Her ideal is someone else doing it for her.

That sounds just like my dad. Even when he was at home he had to ask my mum things like what coat should he wear that day to put the bins out? And then when she became exasperated with him asking her he'd become agitated and wail 'why are you like this with me?' I think she's glad to have a break from him whilst he's in a care home but then she resents him for the pressure it's putting on me.

I think poor mental health is a massive problem in the elderly population and it's the adult children who are having to deal with the consequences in a lot of cases.

Well said, @Sweetpeasaremadeforbees . I also think that older people are sometimes less willing to engage with help, because when they were young, mental health problems were often hidden and viewed as shameful. My Dad sometimes says how ashamed my Granny would be of him, which is so sad. His parents knew he had problems from a young age, but I don't think they ever tried to get him help, it wasn't "done" back then.

We're more aware nowadays, even if help is still hard to come by.

Do you mean the man who needs the adult daughter to "tell" him what to do?

Now that's utterly distorting what the OP said. Dishonest post, that.

And try reading the relevant posts that I was replying to.

No, it isn't.

You said that people dont take responsibility.

But the father isn't! Why on earth is OP trying to make these decisions for him?