To encourage my dad to leave my mum

[Clementinemist]

My mum (61) has always had crippling anxiety that has severely affected my family, but its to the point now where she won't do anything or go anywhere at all. But she is constantly telling me how depressed she is, and she keeps having panic attacks and calls me at random times of the day and night. All she does is sit at home and procrastinate. She's spoken to her GP, been to all kinds of therapy, done antidepressants, pills, mindfulness, all the usual things over the past 30 odd years. The fact that she's lacking any sort of life is at the heart of her problems but she seems unable, and to be honest unwilling, to do anything about it. It's like she's got comfortable just pottering around the house and doesn't care to do anything else now. She's basically just waiting to get old and die.

I honestly don't know what to do. It sounds horrible but I'm dreading the next 30 odd years of this. It's only going to get worse. My dad has floated the idea of divorce a few times over the past year. He's 64, retired recently, wants to downsize to the coast (about an hour away) and travel the world, but mum doesn't want to. (And she doesnt want him to go either). Aibu to encourage him to leave her? Might give her the wake up call she needs? Or sink her into worse depression? It's all causing such sadness and stress in our family, I just want everyone to be happy. I honestly don't know how I can support her anymore.

i think the waters have been a bit muddied here. The “problem” isn’t the mothers mental illness. It’s her refusal to support the father in his passions for travel. I do not understand how anyone on here advocating for the mother think this is ok? I completely accept that she clearly has an illness and whether or not it’s within her control is a moot point. That illness or disability needs care but i fail to see why this means the father can’t have some time to pursue his passions. Other people have respite care. Why can’t this mother?
im so sorry op. It’s a very difficult position to be in. X

What do you suggest then? That everyone else gets dragged down with her?

I've seen that. The other people around my mentially ill bio. mother lived in Hell. Physically, mentally and emotionally abused.

You can play the moral high ground card all you like but watching people's joy in life sucked out, they become cowed down and afraid to speak or do anything, kept up all night with her shrieking and shouting, having to climb over the tables to get away from her when she was wielding a kitchen knife .... It sounds dreadful when written down but the slow, unshowy destruction of joy in life is also terrible.

She could have helped herself only she chose not to engage with the extensive help she was offered. You really think that the people around someone like that should sacrifice their own lives at the cost of hers?

What is your solution, other than implying everyone around her is awful?

It is not your place to interfere in their marriage.

But for him, it is not all or nothing. Just because you are married you don’t have to be joined at the hip. If he wants an overseas adventure and she doesn’t, he can go off on his own for a while, for example.

And for you, you need to set your own boundaries to her. It is not healthy for you to always be on call.

I agree with talkingmouse. It isn't your place to encourage or discourage anything. If your Dad talks about leaving you can only say that you wouldn't judge him if he did.
However, it isn't an all or nothing situation for him. He can tell your mother that he would like her to go on holidays with him etc. but if she doesn't want to go he will be going anyway.
He can find hobbies of his own.
The only reason to go for divorce is if he wants to be free to meet a new partner, otherwise he can live his own life but be there for your mother sometimes. There are possible compromises.

Such hyperbole saying “everyone gets dragged down with her”
It affects your life, but you don’t get dragged down. You can get help when a carer. You don’t have to cope alone. That’s what I’d suggest. I’m not implying everyone around her is awful, I’m saying that abandoning your disabled wife/mother/sister (supposed loved one) is an awful thing to do or to suggest/support to others to do. Furthermore the discussion of whether the disabled person is deserving of care or abandonment is ethically abhorrent. We have no right to judge whether a persons ongoing disabilities are due to them being lazy or not. Especially since mental health is hit or miss in terms of therapy and medication working, it’s worlds more difficult than fixing a broken arm.

But OP personally knows the person she is talking about and in her experience, her DM is avoidant and resistant to effective change and has chosen not to participate in longer term therapy. We do not know her DM so we cannot judge that she is being abandoned, unloved or that this family arent at their wits end and find it tough supporting someone who has a very restrictive (and controlling) outlook on life. If you loved someone you would want the best for them, not just what’s best for you. Some people are inherently selfish and can’t see outside themselves

My point is “so what” it doesn’t matter whether she is avoidant and resistant etc etc she is still disabled does not deserve to be abandoned.

And supporting divorce by the husband so he can travel the globe alone plus advising that her daughter refuse to doing any caring for her mother is advising abandonment. And it’s categorically not something you’d do to someone you profess to love.

If you loved someone you would want the best for them, not just what’s best for you. Some people are inherently selfish and can’t see outside themselves

Exactly and the OPs mum is disabled and needs care/assistance with daily living. The desire to travel the world or not be bothered are wants not needs and to prioritise what you want over what a loved one needs is an act of supreme selfishness.

@Discovereads I guess to some people, the disabled are subhuman and disposable.

Now that's hyperbole.

You still haven't answered my question as to what people are supposed to do when they are being dragged down. Carers are not always the answer by a long shot.

My mother did not get carers because none of them would stay to her.

Honestly? I find your moral high ground-ish quite revolting. I mean that. People are people. The OP is in a difficult situation, her father much more so. Playing the 'people think disabled people are subhuman' card here is an insult to disabled people. I receive life-long disability benefits myself for good reason, I have experienced quite a lot of discrimination and I reject utterly the bitter view you come over with that anyone who chooses to walk away, temporarily or permanently, from a situation that they have lived with for 30 years is treating them as 'subhuman and disposable'.

@Discovereads I appreciate what you're saying, and you may be speaking from your own experience of family members who suffer from mental illness. But my own experience with my Dad and also myself, as I'm diagnosed with GAD, is that if someone doesn't consistently engage with services and manage their illness as best they can, they really will drag you down. Over the years, my Dad has regularly chosen not to try and manage his illness, leading to some awful consequences. It sounds as if the OP's mother is similar, she's not really trying and she's not thinking of her family when she rings the OP during the night, for example. It doesn't sound like she cares whether her DH is happy or not, tbh, she's consumed by her own problems. That's not love.

My Mum, OTOH, fought her chronic physical illness for years with every medical tool available to her out of love for her family. I try to fight my anxiety with everything available to me, because I also want to protect my family from it, and I don't want to restrict their lives. Her parents don't need to get divorced, her Dad can travel without her Mum if he wishes- but she does need to start trying to manage her illness.

Such hyperbole saying “everyone gets dragged down with her”
It affects your life, but you don’t get dragged down
How on earth do you know if op and her dad are feeling dragged down or not? Why are they not allowed to have feelings or find things difficult without being called names? You're being a tad sanctimonious.

I did answer you question. Suggest you reread my response.

If my view is an insult to disabled people, I’ve insulted myself then as also disabled. You can have your opinion, but so can I have opinion. If someone who took marriage vows to stand by me in sickness and in health decided to walk away from me because I’m sick then that is throwing me away like rubbish and is an act of selfishness. I find your view equally revolting and think you must be pretty privileged or not that disabled as you seem to be speaking from the view point of someone who can manage day to day with no carer/carers to assist you.

Not everyone is able to keep on fighting after 30yrs of fighting and getting nowhere. I have lost friends and family to cancer for example and they chose not to go through yet another round of chemo because they had nothing left to give to fight it. Why should we insist that someone with a chronic MH disorder actively seek recovery for the rest of their lives? At some point surely, it should be ok to say I have nothing left to fight this, I choose to be resigned to my current state of being. Why is that wrong?

I think ‘encourage’ is the wrong move but you wouldn’t be unreasonable to make it clear to him that you would support his decision should he choose to leave.

I have an alcoholic DM and for years now I’ve watched her make my DF’s life miserable. A couple of years ago I made sure he knew I’d support HIS decision, whatever it maybe. I needed him to know I wouldn’t be angry if he left her tbh.

He wouldn’t go. Not because he wants this life, but because he knows it would fall to me and my siblings to look after her and he just won’t put that on us. Instead we’ve spent our energy making sure he is self sufficient and builds a life and some hobbies for himself so he can be as happy as possible. I see some sparkly back in him at times now.

Why should we insist that someone with a chronic MH disorder actively seek recovery for the rest of their lives? At some point surely, it should be ok to say I have nothing left to fight this, I choose to be resigned to my current state of being. Why is that wrong?

Because if you don't, if you don't keep trying, you do drag everyone else down.

And no one has the right to make everyone else's life a living, frightened, bruised misery.

He doesn't need to leave her to travel , have hobbies and friends. If he is desperate to live b6 the sea there would have to be adequate funds to house both of them. He could always get a caravan by the sea a stay there when he wants. If he meets a nice companion then maybe divorce then?

It’s like a kind of learned helplessness and avoidance of reality.

Completely agree with this

Over the years, my Dad has regularly chosen not to try and manage his illness, leading to some awful consequences. It sounds as if the OP's mother is similar, she's not really trying and she's not thinking of her family when she rings the OP during the night, for example. It doesn't sound like she cares whether her DH is happy or not, tbh, she's consumed by her own problems

and this. My dad is exactly the same, has a chronic skin problem which he's never properly addressed (tries a cream for a couple of days and then declares it doesn't work) and having recently had a TIA, has refused to engage with physios. I think he's always had mental health issues but work and family kept it at bay. He's in respite care at the moment and his anxiety is through the roof so I'm getting the panicky phone calls. It is draining and I'm on edge all the time (probably why I've just caught a cold).

I’m sorry to hear that, @Sweetpeasaremadeforbees , it’s incredibly draining and frightening. 💐

Thank you. I don't think people really get it unless they've been through it.

If she's been mentally unwell with crippling anxiety and depression for over thirty years then why hasn't this been investigated further?

Has she been referred to a psychiatrist?;has she been made an outpatient at the local mental health unit?,what about the community mental health team?;does she get visits from a community mental health nurse?;what about cognitive behaviour therapy?

What about a diagnosis?

I find it incredibly sad you and your dad see her as a burden who deserves to be disposed of.

If your dad developed a chronic illness or had been incapacitated due to an accident would you tell your mum to walk away from him?

@thenewduchessoflapland she has indeed had a fair bit of treatment but has not really paid more than lipservice to it from what Clementinemist said in her posts.

DH has a hobby he's been on the other side of the world at times. It's been good for both of us. So he should make some holiday plans and start enjoying his retirement. In a way him being there is enabling her behaviour. He could die tomorrow she would have to cope. Divorce is none of your business so avoid that sort of discussion. You and dad need to step back a bit

Anxiety and depression are fucking awful and can be very isolating because the person experiencing it sees the world through anxiety and depression lenses, which leads them to feel worse / do less / think harder thoughts. It’s hard for the people around them too, because logically they can see the changes that people can make to make a difference, those changes are usually common sense and they work. It causes separation and disconnection in relationships to have such distinct perspectives which makes things worse.

The reality is that the thing which will change this pattern of anxiety and depression for most people is taking control of it in one way or another, but there are so many influencing factors and dynamics which make this harder. I’ve met many people who are scared of feeling better, because there are risks with that, will people expect more of me? Will I be able to cope? What if everyone leaves me etc That fear of vulnerability is incredibly real but is also what is keeping the person there in the midst of the depression and anxiety.

The people around the person with those issues are definitely affected by it, not being able to live their life the way they want, living life treading on egg shells for fear of saying the wrong thing, becoming increasingly socially isolated, having their own mood and self esteem chipped away, coming home every night not knowing if their partner will still be alive or whether they will find that is the day that they’ve taken their own life. That’s not ableism, that’s acknowledging the very real impact of mental health issues on the wider family. Nobody should have to live like that and if they’re being forced to out of a sense of loyalty to someone who cannot / will not make changes, that’s not on.

Ive spoken to many people over the years who have been through therapy and said ‘it doesn’t work’ etc then come back to it later in life and recognised that the reason it didn’t work previously was that they didn’t actually engage with it with a view to moving on. It reminds me a bit of when I went to Disneyland first time (bear with the analogy), I was cynical leading up to it, didn’t want to go, thought it was going to be awful. When I got there I had choices to either stay in the mindset I originally had or buy into the Disney mood and embrace it. Only when I suspended the cynicism did the ‘Disney Magic’ work, because I let it in.

I wouldn’t interfere to be honest, I feel quite sorry for your mum it can’t be fun for her I don’t think she can help these things at all, I’m sure she doesn’t want to live like this, does she have aggrophobia op

In fairness there are people who have been too damaged, too deeply early on for anything to reach. They try and they try, heroically sometimes in a silent but fierce battle, but it simply isn't possible for them to engage; it's just too hard. Their future is bleak and it's just so unfair that some people have no chance.

But that still doesn't mean that that they have the right to drag everyone else down with them. In a good society they are entitled to care and skilled help - doesn't often happen with the NHS since the funding isn't there, and getting help from the benefits system can and has pushed people deeper in the mire to the point of suicide.

It is an absolute tragedy of their suffering and the waste of potential and achievement. But they still don't have the right to drag their nearest and dearest down with them.

It's not black and white tho; stay and get dragged down, or leave. There's a lot of situations in between, realistically speaking, and the OP's dad going on his own seems like a good start.

“It’s like a kind of learned helplessness and avoidance of reality.”

this resonated for me too. I think my parents have got into an unhealthy dynamic where mum does nothing for herself and he does it all. It’s gone on so long, it’s so deeply ingrained that other people do things for her. Any suggestion of even the most basic thing that could improve day to day life are ignored, dismissed. Some times the way my mother talks is like she prefers being helped rather than doing things herself.

I see and understand the concerns about not feeling people should not be abandoned by their loved ones. However everyone has limits as to how much care they can provide before it impacts on them in a very real way, either mentally or physically. In a family there has to be some balancing of needs or the situation crumbles. I don’t think the line between people’s wants and needs is that clear either. Rest is important, stimulation is important, feeling you have something to look forward to is important, feeling you have some control over what you WANT to do is important. Hope and something to look forward to is important. A trip away might sound like a WANT but constant care of another person, alongside not ever being able to do the most basic activity for yourself does eventually affect someone health.