AIBU to be fed-up of non-drivers seeking lifts?

[GoldfinchTart]

Disclaimer: this post is not about people who for whatever reason — sight problems, epilepsy, disability, poverty etc — cannot drive. It's about people who could learn to drive but don't want to.

Earlier this week I had a knock at the door and it was a couple asking if I could lend them some gardening equipment. They're in the process of buying a property a few doors along from me. It's a probate sale and it's taking ages, so they'd come down (with the vendors' permission) to start tidying up the garden which has become quite overgrown. They wanted a rake and a spade and loppers 'Because it's difficult to carry a rake on the train'. I invited them in and made them tea while I went to unlock the shed and find the tools. Turns out neither of them drive. He has a licence but found driving stressful and she prefers to be driven.

Our houses are a half-mile walk to a bus stop which isn't much fun when it's pouring with rain. I raised an eyebrow and asked if they cycle? Electric bikes are getting popular around here. We're 11 hilly miles from the nearest major town for shopping and transport links. No, they don't cycle. Long silence. I said that was a pity: taxis were very expensive because they had to come out from the town. She said that they have very nice neighbours where they currently live and they help out with lifts. Apparently the nice neighbours had run these two to the station that morning and would pick them up on their return. And then she asked 'I don't suppose you'd be going into town around 4pm, would you?' Fortunately I had a full afternoon's zoom meeting booked and showed them my diary. My partner and I try to be good neighbours but surely this was a very large red flag?

Next week I'm going to a book festival. I'm going in the camper van my partner and I share. A friend who doesn't drive is coming by train and will be travelling with a tent and camping gear. We arranged that I would be at Hereford station to pick her and her gear up at a certain time. It was planned to give us time to drive to the festival campsite and then for me to go and attend one of the events, which I've booked and paid for in advance. Today she's contacted me to say that she can't get anyone to give her a lift to the station at her end in order to catch the train required. Someone can give her a lift later to the station later in the morning, so she'll be arriving in Hereford two hours later than planned. She still expects me to pick her up from Hereford. I've told her she'll have to catch the bus from Hereford and she's responded that she has far too much gear to get on a bus. She fancies herself as a bit of a green crusader, always knocking me and my partner for having two vehicles and yet she's totally dependent on drivers to get her around.

In August my 28-year-old nephew and his girlfriend are coming to stay. They hope to go walking in the area and to visit several out-of-the-way places. They live in London and don't drive. It's become clear while we've been making arrangements that if they're to do half of what they've planned, I'll need to ferry them around almost every day. They're my relatives, they're here for a week and I'll do it without grumbling. But they'd have far more freedom and independence if they learned to drive and could hire a car for a week.

It strikes me that driving is one of those life skills that all eligible adults should be capable of, even if they choose not to own a car. AIBU?

Maybe the “driving is an essential adult life skill that you can’t function independently without” people are actually MORE likely to get sucked into giving people lifts, if they can’t fathom how anyone could manage without a car?

Foot down with free loaders, OP. These people could get themselves about fine if they had to, they’d just rather you did it for them.

With the new neighbours yes, red flag.
Why would you buy somewhere 11 miles from town if you didn't Drive?
Either they're idiots or this is not for real.

I can't drive, and have structured my life as much as possible so that it doesn't matter much. I live within walking distance of most places I need to get to, and internet shopping has been life-changing - I can buy furniture and other heavy items! My house is considerably smaller than it would be if I lived a bit less centrally, but I'm happy with that.

The problem for me is that my friends who drive haven't structured their lives in that way, so I rarely go to their houses, and if they want me to go to a place or event that isn't accessible by public transport, I will generally only go if they can give me a lift. I think it can sometimes be easy for them to feel that I don't value them much because I don't visit enough, or take advantage of their car, and easy for me to resent spending several hours of uncomfortable travel to visit a friend for an hour.

I never expect people to give me a lift, and you should just say no a bit more

I can drive but I’ve never owned a car. I’ve rarely been in a car past childhood. I’ve occasionally taken a taxi. I’ve never asked for lifts. Most people near me don’t have cars either. Learning to drive is extremely expensive, so is insurance, paying for parking etc. I live in London.

YABU because you shouldn;t be getting fed up, you should be saying no.

If it is literally no trouble - they wait outside their house as you are going past anyway, and they know that if they;re not there you'll just drive past) - then maybe given them a lift, but otherwise no.

"I don't suppose you'd be going into town around 4pm, would you?'

"No, and if I was I would not give you a lift because you're not family and you might get the idea that I'd consider doing it a second time! Lololol! You are a funny one aren't you!"

"She still expects me to pick her up from Hereford. I've told her she'll have to catch the bus from Hereford and she's responded that she has far too much gear to get on a bus. She fancies herself as a bit of a green crusader, always knocking me and my partner for having two vehicles and yet she's totally dependent on drivers to get her around."

"Get fucked!"

"28-year-old nephew and his girlfriend are coming to stay."

Why on earth are they coming to stay if the two options are that they spend a week under your feet in your house, or you spend a week ferrying them around?

You sound quite narrow minded OP. Great that you’ve done all those things and that you have always wanted to get out to the countryside but not everyone shares your views. Or has the necessary funds.

Learning to drive in London is a giant ballache, with busy and crowded roads which are horrible for nervous learners. And even if you pass, lots of Londoners don’t have parking spaces or don’t need a car for everyday life. Why buy and pay to have a car that you’re going to use once in a blue moon? Literally pointless.

And as a PP said it’s not really ideal to have inexperienced drivers hopping in hire cars, especially driving on rural roads they’re unfamiliar with.

And lots of people don’t like the countryside, and are perfectly happy in cities. In London you really really don’t need a car to make the most of life.

And for context, I lived in London til I was nearly 30. Didn’t learn to drive. Couldn’t afford a car, buses came along every few minutes.

Then I moved to Gloucestershire.

Thought I’d just jump on the bus to the nearest town. Didn’t check the times because buses come along regularly, right?! Wrong. Once an hour. I’d just missed one and then the next one was 10 minutes late. I was gobsmacked. And they stop running quite early.

Needless to say I learned to drive 😂😂 I knew I’d be rubbish at it (and I was) so I learnt in an automatic. Been driving more than 10 yrs now but I probably wouldn’t have bothered if I had remained in in London.

I retired last year and now (out of choice, because I love driving) volunteer with a community transport scheme.

Our clients are older and disabled people who would struggle to access public transport (either because it doesn’t exist in our rural area, or because they can’t physically get on it or intellectually cope with it.) Many of them could use taxis - but taxi drivers haven’t got the time it takes some of these people to get into and out of where they’re going, plus they cost a lot more. As a driver, I get expenses at 45p for every mile I drive, the client pays 55p for every mile they are in the car plus a fixed £4.50. The extra helps pays the charity’s running costs (there are some paid staff, premises etc)

It is well organised, and it has boundaries: has to be booked in advance, there is a set scale of fees so everyone knows where they stand, and it’s all on a best endeavours basis. Sometimes we have to tell people we can’t take them on a particular occasion because there is no driver available. It’s up to them what they do about that- they may be able to get a friend or neighbour to take them, book a taxi, or rearrange their appointment.

But the best bit is that, as a driver, I am one step removed from the clients. There is no opportunity for emotional blackmail, because even though it’s a charity and I’m giving my time for free, it is all on my terms. I’m available when I choose to be - and if there is a need then, that’s fine, I will drive anywhere. But if a request comes in on a day when I have other plans - sorry, no can do. So I tell the office and the office tell the client (or find another driver).

Although I found learning to drive hard work and had to stop and start so many times due to life experiences that it ended up costing a ruddy fortune, I do have a licence. After a break for health reasons, one of my major plans this year is to get back behind the wheel. It just means I currently need to take public transport availability into account when I go anywhere, and allow more time, or walk if it's local enough, as well as get more things delivered etc and take taxis if necessary (e.g. hospital appointments, if it's after the buses stop).

If people are kind enough to offer me a lift, then that's great, but I certainly don't expect it and I wouldn't dream of asking or presuming! I've also been in positions when I did drive regularly where one particular (now ex) "friend" assumed I was their personal taxi. It came to a height when I visited one summer weekend and the entire day was spent ferrying her round from B&Q to Tesco to Argos in Shrewsbury. (This was also the summer weekend when the temperature was in the low 30s Celsius and she left me sitting for around 20 minutes after a long journey before her boyfriend took pity on me and asked me if I'd like a drink, though that's an aside.)

The people you mention all sound like Cheeky Feckers and then some!

Learning to touch type and learning to drive were the two life skills I value the most, for the doors they opened in terms of career and freedom, as well as feeling safer as a women in a car than on public transport in general.

*woman not women.

Oh, mumsnet. Would it have been SO hard to include an edit function?!

@GoldfinchTart YABVU to say that everyone should drive. FFS. Some people are shit at driving and it's for society's good that they're off the road!

However, YANBU to find the people you described complete CFers.

I don't drive. I don't need to drive. I am not reliant on any drivers (other than taxi drivers, who are quite happy to accept my money in exchange for ferrying me around).

I think it can be inconsiderate of drivers to suggest doing things in the back end of nowhere (because it's inaccessible for non-drivers) but generally, I see no reason for drivers to offer people lifts unless they want to, and in those circumstances, the people accepting the lifts should either offer petrol money or a favour/gift.

I couldn't accept a lift from someone all the time, and I certainly couldn't assume someone was happy to give me one.

I live in London, so I get public transport to most places, and taxis/Ubers to everywhere else. I'd never ask someone for a lift. I can't drive, and that's fine (no matter what you might think!), but it's down to me to manage that.

i don't think it's entirely fair to say all adults should learn to drive since there are many many barriers to getting a licence, including financial, time restraints etc. But! as someone who doesn't drive I don't rely on other people to drive me around. I pay for taxis, and only have people driving me if they offer to do it themselves :)

Current price of a six day intensive course round here is £1900 plus theory and practical test fees.

Ten 50 minute lessons from a local driving school, not the expensive big ones, is £340 (with the discount for paying for a block in advance). Then there's the theory and practical test fees, and around £150 for hiring the car for the test. And we're not really at the point where people can still pass their test after only eight hours and twenty minutes sat in a car.

It's just not affordable for many people and hasn't been for years.

I’ve often think that a good numbers of people who have learnt to drive and have cars actually shouldn’t be driving - they’re dangerous. Sadly, some of these people think they’re good drivers. I suspect car ownership is going to gradually disappear. It’s expensive and environmentally unsound. The average age for learning to drive has been creeping up for a while now.

What's this book festival?!

A colleague once insisted on driving me home from a department social - and we're talking a 40 minute round trip. I already had a return bus ticket, the bus left from immediately outside the pub at 10:50 and stopped about 100m from my home, on a well-lit main road in a pretty nice area. But apparently she couldn't possibly let me catch a bus on my own at that time of night.

The neighbours are being cheeky

But YABU about your 28 year old nephew from London. I bet you'd complain if he never came to visit you (as it sounds like you're not an easy day trip from london so presumably if he's coming he's coming for longer.) I'm sure you'd also complain if he came up for a week with no idea of what he wanted to do and expected you to plan everything... sounds like he can't win

Probably Hay-on-Wye. Which is well-served by shuttle buses from Hereford station, if I remember right.

One of my DC has been looking into driving lessons. It’s £35 an hour. We don’t have a car for her to practise in. We also have nowhere to put a car. On street residents’ parking is expensive. She won’t be able to afford the insurance, let alone a car. We are also in a ULEZ zone. We also looked at intensive courses. They are very, very expensive - and also no slots available, because there are no driving test slots.

Two totally separate things. I don’t drive and almost never need to because of where I live. On the odd occasion I do need to travel by car I get a taxi. So I agree it’s unreasonable to expect other people to ferry you around but not that learning to drive should be mandatory.

YABU because it isn’t necessary for life to drive. YANBU for thinking that people who choose not to drive need to arrange their lives so they don’t need lifts. E.g. it’s perfectly normal not to drive if you live in London but you can’t then expect to be ferried around if you go to the countryside.

I don't particularly enjoy driving and see it as a necessary evil.

It's expensive and not very good for the planet.

However if people can't or won't drive, it's not on their friends to plug the gap. In the OPs post the neighbours are clearly chancers and the relatives are well relatives, but the CF self righteous eco "friend " who thinks it's permissible to treat a free lift like a taxi is the most annoying one to me. I'd just say No and mean it.

Well then just say no! He's old enough to sort his own transport out and if that means spending some of his wages on taxis then so be it, of course he has no incentive to learn to drive if you are just going to ferry him around anyway

YANBU
I think there's a very strong argument for teaching driving in school.

I don't have a car, but I have structured my life around it. I live in a town with great cycling infrastructure and great public transport connections. I own an electric cargobike in which I can transport my child plus cargo. I have a bicycle trailer if I need to transport even more. I live around the corner from a small shopping centre and 5 minutes cycle/15 minute walk from a big shopping centre with a train station with direct connections to my country's capital city and major airport.

The furthest I cycle regularly is to my grandparents who live 10 miles away. My cargo bike goes 15 miles an hour so I can be there in 40 minutes.

I even live 13 miles from a small theme park which makes it cycling distance.

If all else fails I am a member of a car sharing club and I can rent a car for 4 quid an hour.

I detest people that give us non-car owners a bad name. Who goes and lives somewhere without a car if you then have to rely on other people to give constant lifts.

The neighbours-to-be. Just to clarify, these people haven't moved in yet. The sale hasn't completed. We knew the lady who used to live in the house and her children. We'd been helping to look after her during lockdown. The children told me the house had been sold and and the names of the purchasers so when they rang the bell and introduced themselves I knew who they were. They'd come by train and bus to tidy the garden.
The diary. They asked a couple of questions about the local community and I got my iPad and showed them the Community Council page. They'd just told me their nice neighbours ferried them around, which I was processing with a kind of internal 'Nooooooooo!' when she asked if I was likely to be going into town at 4pm. I knew I was tied up all afternoon so I clicked on my diary without thinking too much about it and we all saw that I had 2pm-5pm blocked out. I said something like 'I'm not going anywhere this afternoon, ha-ha.' Of course I should have said a firm no and left it at that but I was already way off-balance.
The Hereford connection. I've told her she'll have to use the bus or get a cab. Once the camper's in place and levelled up and the gas and fridge are on, it's going nowhere.
My nephew. I don't think he's a CF. I understand that living in London one doesn't need a car. I have work on that week which I can't get out of and when he started telling me about the places they'd like to go I realised that they have little idea of how poor public transport is here. One of the places they want to go is a 90 minute drive from here. The quickest way using public transport is more than 4 hours.