To Say Well Done Suella Braverman.

[AnonIsUsuallyAWoman]

Of course I'm not and I'm going to applaud her. Well Done and Thank You! Brava!

Shes obviously read the Interim Cass Report as she’s saying very similar things to what it’s first findings are. Cass says children need therapy and understanding NOT immediate affirmation or social transition.
So whilst I cannot stand this woman I do agree with her sentiments here.

No it's not. The problem is children being told that if they are a girl who doesn't conform to gender stereotypes about girls, they are actually a boy and therefore need to change their name and pronouns.

If young people accepted that they can be outside of the of the normal expectations of their sex and still be their sex, there wouldn't be any need for new pronouns would there?

Thanks for your honesty. And that's what i was trying to get to. Its absolutely possible to show respect to a school child who is exploring their gender identity. It doesn't mean you don't care about the big stuff, or that you won't lobby your MP or whatever. It just means you've got the humanity to treat a child with respect, even if you don't personally agree with their choice.

She tells you she wants to be known as Aaron and he/him. You're going to say... What?

That what people say about you when you're not present is not something you can control and not your business.

No-one confirms to “the binary” in terms of the stereotypes, likes etc, but each and every one of us is either male or female.

And of course we don’t worry about females in make spaces, 98% of sexual crime is carried out by males. There is no symmetry.

The question was, what would you call that child? How would you refer to her directly to her face? Would you continue to call her amelia, even though she asked you not to? Even though she's the child and you're the adult?

How can people not get this?

A girl who likes short hair, climbing trees, rock music, or whatever, is still a girl. Playing along with the idea that a gender non-conforming girl is “really” a boy is ludicrous.

Greensleeves
but they don’t want a third space and people like Lisa Nandy have clearly stated that male child rapists who identify as women just be out in female prisons.

BadQueen
It’s not a ‘political belief’ that the female child stood in front of you isn’t a man. It’s basic fact - and until about 2 years ago would have been agreed with by about 99.9% of the population.

Pointythings People aren’t that bothered about females identifying into male spaces because 99% of rapes and 86% of violent crimes are carried out by males…..

Thanks for your honesty. And that's what i was trying to get to. Its absolutely possible to show respect to a school child who is exploring their gender identity. It doesn't mean you don't care about the big stuff, or that you won't lobby your MP or whatever. It just means you've got the humanity to treat a child with respect, even if you don't personally agree with their choice.

But as I said, pronouns are not on their own in a vacuum. Your 'for the sake of argument' is irrelevant really because its theoretical and does not reflect what is actually happening.

What if a child started identifying as 'trans racial' and wanted to be referred to as a different name, started dressing and appearing according to stereotypes about black people. Would it be 'disrespectful' to not go along with that?

I don't know what the answer is. I don't like Braverman's use of the word 'pander' when talking about vulnerable kids, but I do think she makes some good points.

Lisa Nandy isn't in government.

What is the current government doing about the issue? They've had long enough.

Johnson and Braverman through out a couple of soundbites and suddenly they're friends of women.

Yeah, sure. 🙄

Throw out, sorry.

They don't have to refuse.

Braverman is the Attorney General (and in general a very poor one). She is ultimately responsible for the government's interpretation of the laws, and she is therefore saying that the government considers that schools have the legal choice.

She will have a team of civil service lawyers advising her, and (on this occasion) will have consulted them.

As gender identity isn't in general a protected characteristic under UK law (it is in other jurisdictions) it's not clear that she's said anything wrong.

It’s not a ‘political belief’ that the female child stood in front of you isn’t a man. It’s basic fact - and until about 2 years ago would have been agreed with by about 99.9% of the population.

So what's more important - your wishes or hers, when talking about what she wants to be known as?

Highlyquestionablehoumous
Please, could you point me towards a report where a flasher showed her "penis"?

Smileyaxolotl1 and that is why we need third spaces. But just as TRAs are erasing women, so are their opponents erasing trans people.

If you want to engage with a young person who is questioning their identity, just coming straight out and telling them their chosen name and pronouns are bullshit is just as unhelpful as telling them that you'll be taking them for hormones and surgery straight away. Again, zero sum thinking.

And it's happening under the current government who've had years to do something about it. So what will Suella Braverman do about the bigger issues, or is she just going for cheap soundbites?

So you do accept it’s an issue, but you’ve decided to just use it as a way of blaming the government rather than acknowledge the issue? Sometimes it feels that every argument will ultimately boil down to it being the Tories’ fault, like some kind of warped alternative to Godwins’ Law.

For the record, I’m not a Tory voter (because I’m sure I’ll be accused of it) but the Tory party is the only one that doesn’t seem to have swallowed the trans/gender ideology koolaid. Labour are TWAW almost to a man (/person/non binary individual), as are the Lib Dems and Greens. So you could argue that a) the Tories have been doing something by not encouraging this and b) are continuing to do something by allowing Braverman to speak freely and not howling her down in a hail of insults. Do we need to do more in terms of third spaces? Abso-fucking-lutely but only when there is public pressure will that come about.

This thread is about gender pronouns and respecting children in schools. People don't generally refer to each other by race the same way they do she/her he/him so can't think how that issue relates to this. Cultural appropriation is a different issue.

I'm gender critical. But if someone asked me to call them by different pronouns then i would. I don't think they've changed sex, but it's not up to me to decide what they want to be called. If they turned up on a single sex hospital ward i wouldn't be happy with that but there is room for nuance. Not everything has to be the slippery slope argument.

Exactly.

I’m a teacher. 19 years’ experience in secondary schools.

This is a fad. Gay and autistic teenagers are finding out who they are, usually in a harmless way.

However, it is not a benign fad when safeguarding is overlooked, as outlined upthread. I report to safeguarding a lot these days, mainly for children who I suspect are unduly influenced by their online activities.

Your 'for the sake of argument' is irrelevant really because its theoretical and does not reflect what is actually happening

It is happening though. In schools up and down the country, young people are questioning their gender. So i imagine plenty of people who work in schools have had the exact conversation I've described - child wants to be called a different name and pronouns and the adult decides whether it's ok to tell that child "no, you're a girl and pronouns are bullshit, now get back to class". Or whether they should respect the child's choice in what they wish to be called.

Sure no problem

metro.co.uk/2022/04/12/ex-soldier-exposed-her-penis-and-used-wheelie-bin-as-sex-toy-in-public-16454386/

My 'theoretical' point was about pronouns existing entirely in a vacuum and not being part of a wider issue. That's not what's happening, pronouns are not happening in a vacuum.

In schools up and down the country, young people are questioning their gender.

Dows anyone stop to ask why? Unlike homosexuality, where people in older generations came out as gay when it became more socially acceptable, changing gender seems to be mostly the preserve of younger people. I’m not aware of a rush of older people coming out as non binary/trans all of a sudden. Which does tend to indicate that there is the least an element of a) an underlying issue particular to younger people and/or b) social contagion.

Smileyaxolotl1
People aren’t that bothered about females identifying into male spaces because 99% of rapes and 86% of violent crimes are carried out by males…..

Whilst completely ignoring the males also have body issues and may not want to have a woman watch them pee.