To Say Well Done Suella Braverman.

[AnonIsUsuallyAWoman]

Of course I'm not and I'm going to applaud her. Well Done and Thank You! Brava!

You're using the slippery slope argument. It's nonsense. Find the middle ground - so yes to female-only and male-only spaces. Also yes to unisex spaces - in addition to, not instead of. Hard no to biological males in female prisons - but find a practical solution.

But 'pronouns' are what lead to women having to refer to their male assaulter as 'she' in a court of law (eg. Maria Maclachlan) or newspaper articles describing how a flasher exposed 'her penis' in public. It is a slippery slope, that's kind of the point.

As I said, I hope the pronouns stuff fades into obscurity sometime in the very near future.

pointythings
but is a slippery slope, if you are affirming children in their chosen gender and saying TWAW then it’s nonsensical to keep males out of female sports and prisons.

You are being disingenuous. It’s when Kevin decides that as well as being called Charlotte he wants to be allowed to use the female toilets, get changed with the girls, and force people to play along with his issues.

Perhaps. But I have not heard argument about why she's got the law wrong on this.

Unlike, say, Stonewall.

That's not what they conversation is about. The conversation is about whether jonny should be respected at school and be called the name they wish to be called by.

And if it stopped at names, I couldn’t give less of a toss about it all. But it doesn’t stop at names, as we’ve seen.

You're using the slippery slope argument. It's nonsense.

We’re quite a long way down the slippery slope, so it’s not nonsense. There ARE women raped in prisons and on hospital wards, there ARE women losing out in sport, there ARE women being hounded out of jobs for “wrong think”, there ARE lesbians told they’re transphobes for not wanting sex with someone with a penis. There is little middle ground other than third spaces but where’s the funding for that? Until it arrives, it’s a hard no to the male bodied in female bodies spaces.

So you'd continue to call that child Amelia then? You wouldn't respect that child's right to decide how they wanted to be addressed?

As an aside, i love how the word disingenuous gets thrown around on Mumsnet simply for stating an alternative viewpoint. Must be the most over used word on this site aside from "naice".

Pronouns don't exist on their own in a vacuum. They are part of a much wider issue including kids being pumped full powerful drugs and getting body parts removed, males in female spaces and women being gaslighted into accepting 'female penis'.

If it was just the pronouns it wouldn't be that much of a problem would it?

Ok so i will ask again. You have Amelia in front of you, 16 years old and vulnerable. She tells you she wants to be known as Aaron and he/him. You're going to say... What?

That she needs to understand why she feels that way. Is she feeling pressured to conform to a gender stereotype of hypersexualised Kardashian-looking “femininity”? Then she needs to be helped to understand that “woman” is not that rigidly defined. Is she struggling with puberty? Are there underlying mental health problems? Is something else going on? If she’s vulnerable, then she absolutely needs the reasons for her feelings addressing.

If after all that Amelia genuinely feels that she wants to be Aaron, then she needs understand that with her rights come responsibilities, and those responsibilities include accepting that your rights have to be balanced with those of others.

So you'd continue to call that child Amelia then? You wouldn't respect that child's right to decide how they wanted to be addressed?

Well, I guess it depends doesn't it? Does Amelia believe that if she changes her name to Aaron she will actually change sex? Does she want to get her breasts removed and start damaging cross sex hormones? Does she think she can actually become a boy?

Or does she literally just want to be referred to as 'he' when people are talking about her?

Does she need to do all that or do you just need to say "ok Aaron". You don't know this child, they don't know you but you think what they need is a huge lecture from you on why you don't accept their right to be called what they want to be called? Ok. Each to their own i suppose.

I’d speak to the welfare officer and the parents to understand what they thought was best.

Playing along with the psychiatric condition of a child unquestioningly is ludicrous.

Or does she literally just want to be referred to as 'he' when people are talking about her?

Yes, for arguments sake. She just wants to be called a different, male name and called he/him. What would you refer to that child as?

Would you vote for the BNP if they proposed to repeal the Gender Recognition Act?

keeping sex segregation in place for changing rooms, teams, and scholarships is important. What she has done though is state that kids need to be forced into gender conformity. It’s exactly the kind of sexist stereotypes that make kids think they have to identify as non-binary or transgender in the first place. They need to ditch the gendered uniform. A skirt is just a skirt. Trousers are just trousers. Anyone can wear either item of clothing.

Does she need to do all that or do you just need to say "ok Aaron".

Why wouldn’t you see what else was going on first? Changing of names can (and I reiterate “can”) be the first step towards puberty blocking drugs and cross sex hormones. Google “Kiera Bell” if you want to see how that can turn out.

Why would your automatic reaction be affirmation?

Disturbed, in need of counselling, in consultation with her parents.

He/him probably. But the society that Suella Braverman is talking about is not just pronouns on their own 'for arguments sake'. It is part of a wider issue and you can't escape that.

I don't necessarily agree that Braverman is correct in telling kids their pronouns are bullshit anyway, because it's not as simple as that. But I do think that we need to try and get away from this pronouns stuff ASAP, because it is damaging, for many reasons.

Huh?

So how do you teach a child respect of something as simple as a pronoun is such a huge deal and to be ignored?
I've taught both mine that respect is mutual.
And frankly, there are far worse things they could be doing than experimenting with a pronoun or name change.
I'd rather my older DC be a they than get involved in county lines, gangs or grooming.

Disturbed, in need of counselling, in consultation with her parents.

And this is the problem in a nutshell. If you don't conform to the male/female binary norm, you must be disturbed. And no doubt some of these young people are. But some are not. Zero sum game, no pause for thought. Let us not forget that homosexuality used to be perceived in exactly the same way.

Also I note that nobody seems to care much about the female bodied in male spaces.

YES, this. We need to find a way to take the toxicity, spite and anger out of this debate, on both sides. Society is changing, whether we like it or not, there are conflicting interests, nobody's rights supersede anybody else's inherently - so we have to behave like adults and find a best fit line through it all that considers everybody. People have forgotten how to shut the fuck up, listen and compromise. Transwomen patently can't do 23 hour bang-up with vulnerable women. It's also dangerous for them to be left in gen-pop in the male estate. So a third space is necessary. Nobody is going to get absolutely everything their own way here.

Well yes of course i would call them the name they're comfortable with. Why would i, as an adult, speaking with a child i don't know, want to deliberately cause them distress because of my inability to see past my political beliefs?

Its not up to me to judge whether they have a valid reason to want to be called Aaron.

And it's happening under the current government who've had years to do something about it. So what will Suella Braverman do about the bigger issues, or is she just going for cheap soundbites?

And to any "rad-fem" who didn't start out as a Tory, but is now singing the praises of monsters like Braverman and Johnson - you have lost your fucking minds.