Page 14 | Every household?????

Trainfromredhill · 2022-05-26T21:33:55+00:00

So, the chancellor is going to give every household £400 for heating. Surely there should be a cut off of household income? The Beckhams, Elton John, james Dyson, Harry styles…….they all get the money too? . I say this as someone in the fortunate position of not needing the £400- I’d much rather it went to someone who does need it.Just seems a huge waste of public money to give it to everyone

Concernedmom90 · 27/05/2022 10:43

Please stop bashing higher earners. They pay a lot of tax already. The middle earners are not eligible for most benefits. Nurseries around me are at least £1300 per month and I am not even in what's considered a nice area. I can't move as the industry I am in are focused in London/greater London area, I can't retrain as that would mean no income for a few years.

Cornettoninja · 27/05/2022 10:43

Topgub how do lower earners pay more tax on this stuff than higher earners?

isn’t the point that lower earners pay a higher proportion rather than total value?

its the example that if I have a pound and you have ten, 10p is a greater proportion of my wealth than it is of yours.

venus7 · 27/05/2022 10:44

SoggyPaper · 27/05/2022 10:14

@venus7

what do you mean by ‘pay most’?

yes, the poorest pay the largest proportion of their incomes as tax - VAT and other taxes on products or services affect them disproportionately.

But, in terms of quantities, higher earners objectively pay more. Far, far more. And it is their taxes that are paying for everything really. Some people genuinely are net contributors to the the public purse. Most people are not.

Arguably, the poorest would be much poorer if it weren’t for the people earning £100k.

Someone on £100k pays £35k in tax and NI. They also pay VAT and other similar taxes - and they pay more of this in absolute terms because they spend more. They may also pay various other taxes.

Proportionally it’s less of their income. But in absolute terms they pay a lot more.

Complexity. It’s a shame it ruins simplistic, highly moralised arguments.

It's also a shame that you can't make a case without being patronising.

Topgub · 27/05/2022 10:45

@Cornettoninja

Yes, as I said wealth inequality is only going to keep getting worse.

The answer to that is not to feel sorry for those in the middle class though.

Topgub · 27/05/2022 10:47

@Pyri

I never said that were?

Are you mixing me up with someone else?

I know lower incomes pay more tax as a proportion of their income

ShirleyPhallus · 27/05/2022 10:49

Cornettoninja · 27/05/2022 10:43

Topgub how do lower earners pay more tax on this stuff than higher earners?

isn’t the point that lower earners pay a higher proportion rather than total value?

its the example that if I have a pound and you have ten, 10p is a greater proportion of my wealth than it is of yours.

Yes, but the poster beneath me @SoggyPaper puts it much better. In terms of tax on a bottle of wine for example, a lower earner will pay proportionally more than a higher earner but in actual terms of things like income tax the majority of tax comes from higher earners in a very significant way

Cornettoninja · 27/05/2022 10:51

The answer is not to feel sorry for those in the middle classes though

I’ve never said they need sympathy I don’t think? Just that their experiences are valid and part of a much bigger picture that has ripple effect on us all.

I certainly don’t see the value, as a lot of posters seem to see, of berating someone for not being ‘poor enough’ to share their experience.

Rosegingerpeaches · 27/05/2022 10:52

I don't think anyone on here is is moaning that they can't afford to live on 100k. I think the point being made is that it 100K doesn't go as far as people think and actually £400 is going to make a difference to them as well. My household income is just over 90K but after childcare, housing, bills and rising food costs it doesn't leave alot. Yes I am grateful that I can afford to eat and have a roof over my head and I dread to think what others are experiencing if we are just about covering our costs, however it will be nice to have something after missing out on the council tax rebate and child benefit. We don't have holidays or buy new clothes for ourselves. I cut my own hair and shop at Aldi. We did make the decision to buy a slightly bigger house, but that is because we didn't have the space to fit twins and two adults working from home in our smaller old house ( working from. home was not our choice). A few years ago we earned a 3rd less but were able to save a decent chunk of our salaries. Instead of arguing about who has it harder we should focus our anger on the fact we are in this mess in the first place. Its terrible that this is even needed in the first place.

Topgub · 27/05/2022 10:53

@Cornettoninja

Yes their experience is valid

But there's ways and means

Waaaarrgghhh I'm so poor I'm having to trade in the nanny for an aux pair and the RR for a tesla isn't going to produce a helpful discussion.

Pyri · 27/05/2022 10:54

Topgub · 27/05/2022 10:47

@Pyri

I never said that were?

Are you mixing me up with someone else?

I know lower incomes pay more tax as a proportion of their income

No, another poster said:

”The people who pay most, actually, are the poorest, you're making the mistake of thinking income tax is the only tax.”

Then you listed out a bunch of other services which higher tax payers receive. My question is that how do they lower income earners pay more in tax? Or do you just mean proportionally on things like VAT and high earners still pay more overall?

luckylavender · 27/05/2022 10:54

RoomOfRequirement · 26/05/2022 22:35

I think it's usually because the admin costs of working out who is entitled and figuring out a cut off that is fair to everyone is more than the money they save.

This

rainingsnoring · 27/05/2022 10:57

@Cornettoninja 'This cabinet have basically handed £15 billion to the energy companies and pretended it’s going to help out household budgets. This is the exact opposite of good fiscal management. From tories who like to crow about how good they are with the economy yet make baffling economic decisions.

Rishi has basically just spunked £15bn of our money up the wall and achieved precisely fuck all but a sound bite.'

It also potentially does harm in terms of:
a) reducing investment in energy projects by the big energy companies
b) sends a negative signal to business generally
c) possible negative affect on pension funds
d) is inflationary itself and may lead to higher inflation and higher interest rates (obviously these need to go up anyway).

Plus. it's the usual short term, u turn/ knee jerk response rather than the long term policy we actually need. They all seem to be assuming that energy prices will go down but there is absolutely no evidence to support this. The war in Ukraine continues to rage and Europe is apparently trying to manage without Russian gas. That will go well....

user1471538283 · 27/05/2022 10:58

It is all just smoke and mirrors and the reason everyone is getting it is to comfort their comfortably off voters and not to be seen as helping the less well off.

This is clearly them panicking.

I am furious because everyone, even those not earning very much will have to pay this back eventually. The tories will not be taking it out of their own pockets. And it just means that they do not have to do anything about these big energy companies making a ridiculous amount of money.

We are heading for a fall and it is gaining speed.

Topgub · 27/05/2022 10:58

@Pyri

I was replying to the person who said they paid lots of tax and got nothing in return. When in fact, they do get something in return.

I didnt make any comment on poorer people paying more tax. Although I do know they pay more as a proportion of income.

Well off people pay more in total. As they should.

Cornettoninja · 27/05/2022 11:02

Yes their experience is valid

But there's ways and means

I don’t disagree

Waaaarrgghhh I'm so poor I'm having to trade in the nanny for an aux pair and the RR for a tesla isn't going to produce a helpful discussion

I haven’t actually seen anyone post anything like this.

If that’s how you are approaching these posts then their credence is lost from the start isn’t it? But then so is yours if you can’t shake it.

rainingsnoring · 27/05/2022 11:04

@user1471538283 totally agree that we are heading for a fall.

It's been coming on for years but they keep kicking the can down the road. It is clear that this 'tactic' is no longer working and the government have no idea what to do. Nor do the central banks. It's very worrying.

fromdownwest · 27/05/2022 11:04

rainingsnoring · 27/05/2022 10:57

@Cornettoninja 'This cabinet have basically handed £15 billion to the energy companies and pretended it’s going to help out household budgets. This is the exact opposite of good fiscal management. From tories who like to crow about how good they are with the economy yet make baffling economic decisions.

Rishi has basically just spunked £15bn of our money up the wall and achieved precisely fuck all but a sound bite.'

It also potentially does harm in terms of:
a) reducing investment in energy projects by the big energy companies
b) sends a negative signal to business generally
c) possible negative affect on pension funds
d) is inflationary itself and may lead to higher inflation and higher interest rates (obviously these need to go up anyway).

Plus. it's the usual short term, u turn/ knee jerk response rather than the long term policy we actually need. They all seem to be assuming that energy prices will go down but there is absolutely no evidence to support this. The war in Ukraine continues to rage and Europe is apparently trying to manage without Russian gas. That will go well....

Completely agree, his grasp of macro economics is shocking, or he jsut not give a hoot.

Instead of looking to actually tackle the issue - OFGEM, Rate caps, alternative energy sources etc. He is just funding the issue.

Already talk on the radio of - should netflix etc get a windfall tax. If businesses are under the illusion that at any stage, the governement will drop an arbitrary tax on them, they may think twice on ivnesting in the UK.

The worst COE we have had for a long long time. Makes Gordon Brown look like Gordon Gekko

Topgub · 27/05/2022 11:04

@Cornettoninja

Slight exaggeration for effect, obviously

Its like asking someone in a wheelchair to care that an able bodied person has to walk up some stairs

MarshaBradyo · 27/05/2022 11:05

rainingsnoring · 27/05/2022 10:57

@Cornettoninja 'This cabinet have basically handed £15 billion to the energy companies and pretended it’s going to help out household budgets. This is the exact opposite of good fiscal management. From tories who like to crow about how good they are with the economy yet make baffling economic decisions.

Rishi has basically just spunked £15bn of our money up the wall and achieved precisely fuck all but a sound bite.'

It also potentially does harm in terms of:
a) reducing investment in energy projects by the big energy companies
b) sends a negative signal to business generally
c) possible negative affect on pension funds
d) is inflationary itself and may lead to higher inflation and higher interest rates (obviously these need to go up anyway).

Plus. it's the usual short term, u turn/ knee jerk response rather than the long term policy we actually need. They all seem to be assuming that energy prices will go down but there is absolutely no evidence to support this. The war in Ukraine continues to rage and Europe is apparently trying to manage without Russian gas. That will go well....

Were you, and the pp, for this windfall tax when Labour suggested it?

Songoftheseas · 27/05/2022 11:06

OP, I thought this but was too nervous to comment in case people jumped on me for daring to admit that we are doing ok financially. We definitely do not need the £400 and I would much rather that it go to someone who is struggling.

Topgub · 27/05/2022 11:07

@MarshaBradyo

Why would anyone who thinks this is an awful idea think it was a good one if Labour suggested it?!

I wouldnt think it was a good idea if anyone suggested it

Cause its a fucking terrible idea

fromdownwest · 27/05/2022 11:09

Topgub · 27/05/2022 11:07

@MarshaBradyo

Why would anyone who thinks this is an awful idea think it was a good one if Labour suggested it?!

I wouldnt think it was a good idea if anyone suggested it

Cause its a fucking terrible idea

To be fair if you laid out the policies and actions of both red and blue, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Both as incompetenet as each other at the minute

MarshaBradyo · 27/05/2022 11:09

a) reducing investment in energy projects by the big energy companies

Btw there’s a big incentive for oil and gas to invest as they get 90% off if so. So if investment is important to you this version will be welcomed over the previous iteration.

I agree inflationary pressures are a concern and other events such as strikes for pay increases or public sector increase will be an issue.

The key is to target the lowest so it’s not ‘eat or heat’ a phrase that was used a lot until now it’s other criticism

I don’t love the higher spending but it is the most targeted way to help the lowest incomes - the extra into bank account that is

MarshaBradyo · 27/05/2022 11:11

Topgub · 27/05/2022 11:07

@MarshaBradyo

Why would anyone who thinks this is an awful idea think it was a good one if Labour suggested it?!

I wouldnt think it was a good idea if anyone suggested it

Cause its a fucking terrible idea

I’ve seen loads of posts from the left applauding it but now not.

Personally I was reticent due to inflationary pressure but I don’t draw conclusions re one doing it bad, other party suggesting same good

Cornettoninja · 27/05/2022 11:11

Topgub · 27/05/2022 11:04

@Cornettoninja

Slight exaggeration for effect, obviously

Its like asking someone in a wheelchair to care that an able bodied person has to walk up some stairs

Not ‘care’ just recognise that it’s a symptom of the same problem. If an able bodied person can’t go up some stairs then there’s little to no chance a wheelchair user will ever get up there either.

@MarshaBradyo why? For the record I am fairly ambivalent about a windfall tax, I fail to see the sustainability of any impact it may have and have already said what I measures I believe have longevity.