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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

watching a town completely die

433 replies

BlessedByTheShitFairy · 25/05/2022 13:37

This is so sad really, the town where I grew up. I know many business folded during covid and many high street staples have been closing for years, but this is different.

It's a large town, over 400K population, had a bustling, varied and thriving centre for most it's history, has now lost, and many before covid:

Debs, Next, M&S, Topshop, H&M, Body Shop, its central post office, game shops, cafes, most youth related places such as skating, bowling, carts, ALL restaurants (no exaggeration), health food stores, 2 shopping centres, most pubs, it's huge market, several banks, nightclubs, a town centre co-op, Spar, book shops, many charity shops and all of it's high end hair salons. Even the Starbucks slid off and the main post office was reduced from around 10 staff to 1 and shoved into a tiny toilet sized cubicle on the periphery of the borough.

These have been survived and replaced by - pop up eyebrow/lashes salons, fast food joints, poundshops, phone-unlocking shops, cash converter type shops, Primark (it's only remaining clothes store), Iceland, and the rest if boarded up. Interestingly a ton of privately owned car parks have taken over the area and hardly anyone uses them. It is unrecognisable from even 7 years ago. It now only attracts crime, heavy drinking, and a much less diverse population.

I know many towns have experienced closures of big brands, and things are simply changing (the net, everything online, etc) but this is really extreme, especially in comparison to a few years ago, it was not particularly suffering a decline. I do know that the council slowly sold off everything over the years, and have sent 2 huge shopping centres to their doom by selling to overseas investors who never came and filled them, so they are like enormous empty spaces that attract crime.

I don't currently live there but my remaining family that do say they never go in to town anymore, and feel forced to buy everything from standalone supermarkets in other areas.
I live in a fairly average town that has seen changes but there are also attempts at rejuvenation. Things are still ok and thriving in the centre. I am also aware that many towns are coping ok, taking the rough with the smooth, even though these issues have increased across the uk over all.

What could have happened to this one? Why so desolate and different? It is like the council just gave up sold it off and turned away. It never used to suffer so much crime, and the sound of police and ambulances is constant around the area now. The town centre was it's pride and joy, had so much put into it (festivals, events), so I can't understand how it got so bad.
Even the people who you see there now are all strangely similar (dress the same, same behaviours) and the diversity has vanished. Curiously rents are still super high and I have no idea who is taking them, if at all.

I feel sad about it because I grew up there, and have so many good memories of my teens when it was thriving, packed and full of interesting places to go and shop. The pubs were visited from far and wide, and it had a great college, access to learning, and much more culture. Now it is lucky to hold on to a handful of football clubs and that's the only interest left. Where and why did everything just die? It was previously so bloody alive.

OP posts:
daimbarsatemydogsbone · 25/05/2022 17:36

Iamthewombat · 25/05/2022 15:12

I’m surprised that free parking is such a big deal for people. Is £5 for two and a half hours’ parking so very expensive really?

Ultimately, residents can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a charming and picturesque town centre that people want to spend time in (and Wigan, the subject of this thread, does have charming Victorian buildings) AND turn it into a massive free car park, with roads choked with traffic.

Somebody else complains that the nightlife in her local town has been killed off by the smoking ban. Great. Let’s reverse that then, shall we?

I was happy when they introduced parking charges in our nearest market town (this is a while ago) - the huge car park was always chock-full but after they started charging I could actually get a space. Some people do seem weird about paying to park their car though - my step Dad would drive for miles to find a free space to park, then walk miles rather than pay a couple of quid.

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 25/05/2022 17:37

OP - I had a look on google maps/tripadvisor - there do seem to be restaurants listed in Wigan centre with recent reviews?

Doomgloom123 · 25/05/2022 17:38

The sad thing is this is all over the world.ive moved back to the UK recently and was shocked at the difference between different cities. Some are zombie towns where as others are thriving. And this is not a case of north south divide. Its scattered across the country.

Were I lived before in America they had the exact same problem.

The demise of the high streets is a symptom of greater issues.

What's hard to face is the good times are over for the human population.

Those in their 60s and 70s have had the best of it. We are paying for it financially and environmentally.

City centres that are thriving are mixed use,ie a mix of shops,residential,leisure facilities and green space. The local area also has a large retired middle class population who have free time and money to go into town. These are the people with the most disposable incomes. They are also the people with the most free time to support civic societies and complain about anti social behaviour and volunteer for the community.

Covid accelerate what was going to happen anyway,and all governments have fucked things up,just in different ways.

The labour party introduced PFIs which have crippled organisations,and it's all about to get much worse as they are ending around now.

The conservative party have fucked us over allowing businesses to get away with tax dodge structures so we have not been able to invest this back into society.

I am thankful everyday that I live in a town centre that happens to be thriving. I feel so sorry for those who are not as things are only going to get worse.

Echosound · 25/05/2022 17:41

Whilst yes, rents are high etc I believe this is entirely down to us shopping online and in big retail parks. That’s the whole reason IMO. Imagine if Amazon or Asos didn’t exist, or the Trafford centre. Woolworths would likely still be on the high street. As would all manner of shops. This directly comes from online shopping.

DoubleCarbs4Life · 25/05/2022 17:43

Haven’t read the entire thread, but that sounds really sad, OP.

I live in a London suburb and our local high street has really changed over the last few years. It’s not decimated like you describe, but it’s wall to wall fast food outlets and cafes and lined with Uber Eats / Deliveroo etc bikes & motorbikes. It feels like the only way people can make money from the high street here is through food deliveries.

In my case, I think it is 100% to do with people shopping online. We’ve always had shit parking in London (well, for decades), so it’s not that.

Lolabalola · 25/05/2022 17:45

Our small local town is also in massive decline, but totally the councils fault.
They sold off the shopping centre area and existing land to a developer. The plan was for them to demolish the library and a in town supermarket and a theatre and cafe and rebuild a new shiny shopping centre with restaurants and a bowling alley, new library and theatre complex.
So they kicked out all the traders in the indoor market with just a few weeks notice, they had been really busy, butchers, barbers, sweet shops and a cafe that was always full and a central point for the elder town folk, put in an Argos instead. That closed down about four years ago so now that's all empty.
Demolished everything and have rebuilt....nothing. Area looks like a bomb site fenced off with heras panels. Library moved to a temporary site that has now become permanent. No theatre. Loads of shops moved out as once market was booted out and supermarket left, area became a desert. Now full of temporary shops or ridiculous pretend shops with stickers in the windows.
It's an absolute travesty. They are blaming Covid now obviously but this all started years before and anyone with half a brain could see they were never going to rebuild anything

Doomgloom123 · 25/05/2022 17:47

And just to add many shops,such as BHS ,have closed down not because of them failing on the high street,
they have closed because some private investment group has taken over,sucked them dry,restructured debts and left them unable to service their liabilities such as pensions

ssd · 25/05/2022 17:47

I hate to read this. I haven't been to England for years but last time we were in Hexham and it was bustling and lovely. And ive always thought of Harrogate as very genteel and lovely to visit. Its awful how its going.

ssd · 25/05/2022 17:48

Of course its happening all over Scotland too.

ChiswickFlo · 25/05/2022 17:51

Derby is awful now.
The shopping centre has many empty units.
It costs me £5 in petrol to get there now and the same to park (£4.20 yesterday for 2 hours)
Debenhams, HofF, cath kidston, BHS, patisserie Valerie...all gone.
The out of centre cinema is gone, the main street basically has macdonalds and Costa and a waterstones. That's it.
My own main street where I live has no bank, no butchers, no grocers, no bakery...(had all of those 20 years ago..)
Plenty of hairdressers, estate agents, gift shops, curry houses and pubs!
We have 1 small co op.
I'm not sure the post office will last for another year ..
And all whilst 2 HUGE housing developments are being built 🤷‍♀️

LinManuelMirandaIsAGenius · 25/05/2022 17:56

@TheJubileeLion it sounds like you’re talking about Whitehaven. I know it well, and agree…

Echosound · 25/05/2022 17:57

There are a load of empty units in the Trafford centre actually so this also affects larger shopping centres. All the ones we know about, gap, oasis, warehouse, topshop, Dorothy Perkins, burton, miss selfridge, Debenhams, monsoon all gone. And that’s just the clothes shops. Likely many more who have left. Some of the units have filled but not many. It’s so depressing but at the same time I buy clothes online all the time because there are no shops, or limited stuff in shop, but which came first, chicken or egg, it’s a vicious cycle

BlessedByTheShitFairy · 25/05/2022 18:03

Something else that bothers me, and If anyone could explain or expand on it that would be great.

IF our town centre's are dying and shops moving out to retail parks, how does this affect pollution? Doesn't it make us more car dependent?

I hear that a lot of new estates are popping up with no shops, schools, et, so that most people are forced to drive everywhere, when this was at one time associated with living rurally.

It just seems that all government talk about climate change and pollution is simply lies. It seems more about how many contracts can be given to rich friends in the short term, with no foresight or care whatsoever.

OP posts:
Iamthewombat · 25/05/2022 18:11

Seeing people urinating everywhere is bleak. Lying on the floor in their own vomit

The drugs are very bad at the moment - had to call an ambulance a few times when out walking the dog recently. Just because people are passed out in front of Waitrose rather than a boarded up shop doesn't mean that issues are not there.

It s very naive to think that green towns do not have issues.

Towns die when locals give up on them. Locals are in despair about Harrogate at the moment - as are businesses.

Are all the locals and businesses ‘in despair’ about Harrogate? Have they all ‘given up on the town’? I doubt it. I was there two weeks ago (no, not on a hen do; we have friends living there). It looked fine to me. Thriving streets full of lovely shops, respectable-looking people and nice places to eat and drink. I didn’t see a single person urinating on the street or lying in a pool of vomit. You claim that it’s happening all the time (‘people urinating everywhere’), which is ridiculous. People probably do the same thing in Mayfair when the bars and clubs close.

I suspect that what you are really upset about, judging by your previous post, is housing in Harrogate becoming too expensive for your daughter and her friends to afford, hence the AirBnB ire. Not just at the AirBnB landlords but at the people staying in them.

Can you see that a proliferation of AirBnBs means that the town in which they are situated is a nice place that people want to visit? You don’t have to like it, any more than the residents of e.g. Reykjavik have to like the fact that many of their residential accommodation is now AirBnB. It doesn’t make the town ‘bleak’ though. You could start an alternative thread bemoaning the perceived drop in standards in Harrogate rather than hijacking the OP’s thread about towns with genuine problems, but I doubt that you’d get much sympathy!

ParsleyRosemarySage · 25/05/2022 18:13

No one seems to know how to plan at the bottom end of the economy now. It is all about large chains maximising profits which they can then suck out of local economies. They standardise offerings, which can be auctioned off to the highest paying large chain, rather than responding to local needs and markets. Local councils have little or no power to change anything: services have slowly been taken out of their control for decades, and they have been forced, by law, to contract work out to the lowest price with no regard for local impacts. There is no one to speak for local affairs in central government, no checks, no balances. A few celebrity mayors don’t really have the same voice as a mandated council with powers.

No one has ever had any interest in climate change: an economy governed by central government without a multiplicity of local powers was always going to be very vulnerable to takeover by centralised financial interests, and that’s exactly what happened. Decades ago. Centralised financial interests have no interest in people. It’s a far cry from lots of local companies manufacturing locally, supplying locally, employing local people and putting their wealth back in to the town in the form of parks and buildings.

EveningOverRooftops · 25/05/2022 18:15

Combination of things.

locally to me we have issues of -

reduced bus routes into town

high parking charges

huge rates costs for the private owner mall that naturally attracts the big names and that’s decimated the once thriving rest of the town where these shops once stood

High local business rates

BIDs (business improvement districts) that charge businesses on top of business rates. Oft private owned with big wage CEOs. Ours runs market days that draws income away from local shops into those out of town stall renters. It’s a big bone of contention here but you can’t opt out either.

limited range of options and ease/availability of online shopping. Eg this week I needed a sink plug, balls of yarn and something nice to eat I’d have to travel to 3 different shopping spots here as the DIY place has moved out of town, restaurants have moved to the ‘tourist hotspot’ 25 min walk away and the only yarn/craft place left is a hobbycraft on an industrial estate out of the town centre and they’re very limited yarn wise compared to a good yarn shop. To do it all it would be 6 different journeys just to get that then come home taking most of the day. Instead I shop online for most of it and save my time.

On my smaller high street the greengrocer shut due to competition from coop. The butcher went the same way.
yarn shop closed during the pandemic. The charity shops turned into a barbers and a fast food place. The pound shop type place now mostly sells vape juice.

MarshaBradyo · 25/05/2022 18:16

When I go to towns I see what is described on this thread, it is depressing

But here (‘up and coming’ London or already reinvigorated) we have more independent shops and people using them and I wonder what the key differences are

BlessedByTheShitFairy · 25/05/2022 18:25

CurbsideProphet · 25/05/2022 17:31

I'm sorry if this has already been said but there are restaurants left in Wigan and The Old Courts is being transformed by a community group, but definitely agree the town centre is devoid of any life. Hopefully the council plans for the new market / cinema etc are successful. We're only 30 mins away but never go.

The one's I was aware of a few years ago are gone. I am sure there are some round about. It has just completely altered for the worse.
The Old Courts is a dive, a lot of good intentions and hard work went into that over the past 15 years, it's a shame. It's been 'being transformed' for years. Nothing ever happens because there's no market left for any of it. God it's depressing :(

OP posts:
Ferngreen · 25/05/2022 18:25

It's a shame we can't chivvy people to clean up town centres - ok you don't wade through piles of beer cans but you'd think powerhoses hadn't been invented. Green moss and algae, seagull droppings, dried vomit, fag ends. Anything concrete really dingy.
I had a week in Florida - I saw one fag end (lying on a drain) and not one speck of rubbish the whole week. Unbelievable.
But everything is the responsibility of 'the cooncil' not the public.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 25/05/2022 18:31

What's hard to face is the good times are over for the human population

That’s a bit bleak. I don’t think they are over for ever. It’s just a bad time.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 25/05/2022 18:33

I think to run an independent shop in London you must have to be quite wealthy to afford the rents.

Meanehike in skint northern places very few people can afford the rents or business rates.

Iputthetrampintrampoline · 25/05/2022 18:37

Ours is full of nothing but eastern european supermarkets,charity shops,takeaways,barbers and betting shops. It is so dire. I live a mile out and travel 10 miles to avoid going, It too has a large drug problem that is in the central precinct and beggars and gangs of men who will not move and make you walk off the path and in the road with a pram which is highy intimadating. I know its not politically correct and I know I will seem racist but it is how it is. Non of my friends and family go there it doesn;t feel safe at all. I have no idea whos to blame but thats the situation and I vote with my feet to not go there.

HappyHappyHermit · 25/05/2022 18:41

@Iamthewombat My reasons make perfect sense.

Libertaire · 25/05/2022 18:41

It’s definitely not just towns that are struggling. My nearest city is Leicester. The state of the city centre and the way it has declined over the last decade has to be seen to be believed. It used to be a thriving, diverse city with generally good relationships between various communities.

Now, it has become a total dump. Someone I know even used the phrase ‘third world shithole.’ A decade ago, Leicester had six department stores : John Lewis, House of Fraser, Fenwick, Debenhams, BHS & M&S. Now, only JL & M&S remain, and the latter is a tired store which is mainly used as a cut-through between two streets. Nail bars, chicken shops & other cash businesses used for laundering drug money have replaced normal shops. The main Highcross shopping mall is half empty. Entire streets, eg Belvoir St & Market st which used to be an upmarket shopping area, are now almost desolate. The market used to be excellent, it’s now a shadow of what it used to be.

The council responds to its dying city centre not by cleaning the place up dealing with all the druggies, beggars, scammers & religious/ anti-vax nutters but by making it ever more difficult, inconvenient & expensive to drive into town & park. Meanwhile, Fosse Park, a large retail park next to the M1 which is clean, safe & well run with free parking is expanding & thriving. I wonder why?

So-called ‘white flight’ has now become ‘middle-class Asian flight’ as families who can afford to move out to one of the affluent towns & villages in the county. Reports of stabbings have become an almost daily staple of the local rag. Many people I know simply refuse to go into Leicester at all because they just don’t feel safe.

Caszekey · 25/05/2022 18:44

This seems like mismanagement to me

I live in a town popn 285000 ranked in top 10% most deprived towns etc and it isn't that bad. We've lost a few chain restaurants and stores but there's at least six pubs in the wider town centre, 4 restaurants plus coffee shops (the big two) and cafes, Asda, Tesco, Entertainer, Argos, Smyths etc plus all the usual second hand shops, poundlands, vape stores. We've got a new bowling alley coming and even a Ninja Warrior UK thing as well as several soft play centres. Of course we lost the big Department stores and have empty beautiful buildings but it's busy

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