watching a town completely die

[BlessedByTheShitFairy]

This is so sad really, the town where I grew up. I know many business folded during covid and many high street staples have been closing for years, but this is different.

It's a large town, over 400K population, had a bustling, varied and thriving centre for most it's history, has now lost, and many before covid:

Debs, Next, M&S, Topshop, H&M, Body Shop, its central post office, game shops, cafes, most youth related places such as skating, bowling, carts, ALL restaurants (no exaggeration), health food stores, 2 shopping centres, most pubs, it's huge market, several banks, nightclubs, a town centre co-op, Spar, book shops, many charity shops and all of it's high end hair salons. Even the Starbucks slid off and the main post office was reduced from around 10 staff to 1 and shoved into a tiny toilet sized cubicle on the periphery of the borough.

These have been survived and replaced by - pop up eyebrow/lashes salons, fast food joints, poundshops, phone-unlocking shops, cash converter type shops, Primark (it's only remaining clothes store), Iceland, and the rest if boarded up. Interestingly a ton of privately owned car parks have taken over the area and hardly anyone uses them. It is unrecognisable from even 7 years ago. It now only attracts crime, heavy drinking, and a much less diverse population.

I know many towns have experienced closures of big brands, and things are simply changing (the net, everything online, etc) but this is really extreme, especially in comparison to a few years ago, it was not particularly suffering a decline. I do know that the council slowly sold off everything over the years, and have sent 2 huge shopping centres to their doom by selling to overseas investors who never came and filled them, so they are like enormous empty spaces that attract crime.

I don't currently live there but my remaining family that do say they never go in to town anymore, and feel forced to buy everything from standalone supermarkets in other areas.
I live in a fairly average town that has seen changes but there are also attempts at rejuvenation. Things are still ok and thriving in the centre. I am also aware that many towns are coping ok, taking the rough with the smooth, even though these issues have increased across the uk over all.

What could have happened to this one? Why so desolate and different? It is like the council just gave up sold it off and turned away. It never used to suffer so much crime, and the sound of police and ambulances is constant around the area now. The town centre was it's pride and joy, had so much put into it (festivals, events), so I can't understand how it got so bad.
Even the people who you see there now are all strangely similar (dress the same, same behaviours) and the diversity has vanished. Curiously rents are still super high and I have no idea who is taking them, if at all.

I feel sad about it because I grew up there, and have so many good memories of my teens when it was thriving, packed and full of interesting places to go and shop. The pubs were visited from far and wide, and it had a great college, access to learning, and much more culture. Now it is lucky to hold on to a handful of football clubs and that's the only interest left. Where and why did everything just die? It was previously so bloody alive.

Business rates are NOT set by local councils but by central government. The Valuation Office revalue all business premises every 5 years, based on the value you would have to pay to rent the premises. This is then multiplied by a figure, known as the multiplier to give the amount of business rates due. So, if the rateable value was £50,250 ( as our 800sq ft town centre shop was) and the multiplier is .45, then the rates payable are £50,250x .45, or £22,600 ish. If the rateable value is low, I think less than £15k then the business gets small business rates relief and will pay no business rates. The local council collects the rates on behalf of central gov. In the Northern city we had our shop in, the landlord was almost reasonable and didn't put our rent up at 2, 5 yearly rent reviews, but the business rates went up regardless of falling footfall.

You actually let a surprise visitor in?? Return your MNer badge PDQ!

Stoke on Trent is the same. It's always been a bit rough but it had a busy, vibrant city centre; now it's all closed down and even M and S have moved out of town. The council don't help when they charge a fortune for parking and high rates for small businesses. It's also difficult because you can get on a train and be in Manchester City centre in 40 mins - so that's what people tend to do. It's so sad. I'm guessing Wigan has the same problem being so near to Manchester.

OK that's interesting. I thought councils set business rates. Oh well, one more reason to hate this fucking government then.

I noticed on recent local elections the Tory candidate was more pro local business than Labour

Not sure I agreed with it all - eg no ULEZ for business but it was the general direction

Would people moan if business rates were lowered though? Generally people want businesses to pay, but maybe not local ones so much?

Would people moan if business rates were lowered though? Generally people want businesses to pay, but maybe not local ones so much?

The main problem with business rates is that a High Street store pays more (for exactly the same space) as an out of town retail park store or an online warehouse due to different multipliers being used for different types of premises, and High Street retail being the highest multiplier. That needs to change so that there is at least parity. An Amazon warehouse of exactly the same size as a High St store shouldn't be paying far less, in fact given online shopping trends, it should be paying more, i.e. time to reverse the multipliers!

So many properties on the High Street are owned by absent landlords, absent property management companies , oligarchs ( by dint of investment portfolios.)

Properties on the High Street cost an absolute fortune.
No wonder business prefer the online business model.

Endless councils have put forward plans for a cafe culture combined with local/artisan/arty farty shops but the rents/lease are prohibitive.

Towns and cities are wanting to copy the European model of a thriving food market, independent coffee shops/ independent restaurants/craft and gift type shops as well as one off businesses but the property market in these places is unsustainable.

To many overly rich property portfolios are preventing the growth of towns and villages.

Derby has the same issue with Nottingham (and Sheffield, and even Birmingham).

It is those centralised chains pulling out now of the towns, where they ousted local businesses, and maximising their profits by retaining only the most attractive physical properties in areas with the very highest footfalls. Both pushed by the need to maximise not just profits but profit margins, for remote shareholders on the other side of the world, and Britain’s insanely unaffordable land prices. We need to re establish local businesses, but few have the resources either to supply the raw materials needed or those land prices and rates. Even the markets died.

I see

Going back to pp I think there’d be outcry if business rates were reduced for Pret or Starbucks though?

The pp was angry they were high but maybe it’s the independent stores that could use the reduction not necessarily global chains

Not sure reduction for those would go down well with public

But we are creating this too. Online shopping, cheap fast fashion like Shein, we don’t shop on the high street. We don’t want or can’t afford to pay for quality or high street prices. High street businesses can’t compete.

Very interesting as this sums up the High St here

It seems to be getting more so too

I do wonder how some shops can afford it. Some have been there for ages and are a bit run down but others are very new and quite niche

I don't know what the answer is if the UK isn't focusing on producing anything beyond retail and financial services.

That, if not started by, was certainly accelerated by Blair and Brown’s insane focus on turning “Cool Britannia” <boke> into a service economy.

What do we manufacture these days? We can’t even build our own Nuclear power plants these days, relying on the French and Chinese to do it for massive bribes (and then seeing them swiftly backtrack). We were atomic innovators once.

I was in Wigan last week, bought a few summer vests from H&M.

Sister called me last night said H&M had just shut down. I hadn't seen that coming!

I grew up in a decent area of Wigan, and never saw the worst of the 80's or the affects of unemployment. In a way I lived in a bubble with horses and fields and lots of freedom. I was 16 before I saw how people were struggling, an even then there was a sense of community, a thriving centre, amazing transport and lots of people and investment coming through. So it wasn't a perfect picture by any means, but it was nothing like it is now. And I KNOW those people want the markets back, the shops and decent places to eat. Whenever there's a passing market comes through the town it fills up immensely and everyone is so happy! I don't think the local people of wigan chose this.

I think people are stunned and feel defeated. When I get off the train there it's a sea of slumped shoulders and grey faces. People look fed up and tired. There used to be decent planning with lots of trees and some decent green spaces, now the council find one reason after another to tear it all down, and nothing ends up taking it' s place.

There's a Lidl close to the town centre and it owns several areas of grass surrounding it. It is well maintained and cleaned daily, and it marks an alarming contrast with the council owned land beyond that - strewn with trash, bottles, broken glass and piles of rubbish. It is difficult not to blame the council.

A lot of local businesses supply the council with money (towards sports fields, schools, etc) then they go on to break environmental laws such as horrific noise pollution and dumped waste. When local residents report it to the council, they say they will 'look into it' and the result is always that they find nothing wrong. It's a shit show.
One area (Scholes) in the centre of town has several factories and warehouses literally feet from people's bedroom windows churning out excessive noise (ground shaking for 12 hours kind of noise) and stench (food production). The value of properties in this area plummeted long ago.

parking matters it is one of those things that people resent not always logically it might cost more in fuel to drive elsewhere ( like people also resent having to pay for toilets)
in our local market town you can park free for an hour on high street enough to pop to chemists the bakery and butchers this is great for the elderly the disabled and those with just a mobility problem ( these people are not helped by cycle lanes, park and ride etc) also these groups really do want to shop local,
you can park outside the door do your messages and drive off, the town car park is free for 2 hours but you need a ticket you can pay for 2 extra hours max time 4 hours to stop commuters using it instead of station car park. 2 hours is enough to do your shopping and get a coffee with a friend or pay the extra or two £1 per hour and get lunch,
there are more independent shops than chains though

There is a psychology to shopping, shop owners pay a small fortune for the analysis and get loss leaders etc so people will drive further for free parking as they see that as a value not a cost

I live near a small market town, in the SW, that was (some years ago) among the Top 10 places to live in the UK. And it remains successful. There are empty shops, but not many, and lots of charity shops, hairdressers and barbers, and no big chain stores apart from a tiny Boots and Superdrug. What they have done right is resist the move to charge for short term parking. Around the tiny figure of eight where all the shops are clustered, the parking is free for one hour but there are two or three other carparks where you can park all day for £3. The indoor market runs 5 days per week and the outdoor market the same, but expands and contracts with the seasons. You can pop in to buy fish or meat or bread and artisan cheese, pick up your prescription and get to your (Not NHS) dentist check up and back out in 60 minutes, then go to the supermarkets on the edge of town for the rest. It is a very small town, serving a population of about 15,000 plus a sprawling rural catchment. And there is not much you can't buy in town from an outfit for the mother of the bride to a lawnmower, so most people try to shop local and independent.

It's not a destination, and the shopping is not super-chic; there's not much international designer merchandise for sale, except pre-loved, and the style is too safe to appeal to teens and younger women, but there's a smallish city 20 minutes away that caters for them better, and buses to get there.

Online shopping, cheap fast fashion like Shein, we don’t shop on the high street. We don’t want or can’t afford to pay for quality or high street prices. High street businesses can’t compete.

I'd much rather buy clothes in person, where I can assess the quality and try them on. I'd happily pay a bit more for something nicer, as long as it's not extortionate. Unfortunately when I do assess the quality I generally find it lacking! And I find the shops very same-y, so if I want something different, say jeans that aren't blue/black/grey it's much easier to search online rather than trail hopelessly round shops.

Mind you, I don't buy that many clothes anyway so I'm not going to save the High St singlehandly!

And that is the problem

Weekend visitors think it is great
Residents are facing drug dealing, drunks and a lack of shops

On Saturday I shall walk into town and take a few photos for mumsnet. You will be shocked.

Everytime I walk my dog towards town after 4pm there are drunks out of control. We have urine up our house daily. Drunks in the garden etc etc

I am not hijacking a thread, I an saying that it is an issue in all towns.

Our high street is surrounded by residential streets. It’s heavily populated and there are parking cameras too.

However, we can park in the residential streets after 12pm on Saturdays and Sundays, which I think helps the high street keep going.

My home town has also gone downhill. I’ve lived here for 45 years, and it’s the worst it has ever been.

For a start it’s so overcrowded. The population has doubled, and the town is now surrounded by awful new build housing estates. The houses are tiny and squashed together, and the estates are so cramped you can barely get a car through them. It’s basically a small market town with the population of a small city.

Another depressing change is the amount of shops that have closed. We used to have a lovely, smart Debenhams - four floors and a nice cafeteria at the top. That has now closed, as has Next and one of the Waterstones. Our M&S is also due to close. The High Street seems scruffier every time I go in - nothing but charity shops and nail bars.

There has also been an increase in homelessness, violence and ethnic tension. We seem to get a lot of so-called ‘problem families’ moved here from London.

lt was Thatcher that turned the U.K. into a service economy. She was obsessed with it.

Same in the town I grew up in, Southend-on-Sea.

I now live in an upcoming market town in West Yorkshire. Hoping this isn’t too outing!
Its totally different.
Each time I go back to my hometown it looks sadder and sadder.

I fear we are becoming a much more polarised country. Those who can will relocate to an area more to their taste, leaving behind what they don't like to live somewhere more congenial. So some places will become more desirable (and pricier) while others will be stuck in the less pleasant towns.

A lot of the (huge) new estates built locally were bought outright by big city council/housing associations to disperse and remove tenants they didn't want to cope with to some other council other areas.

There still aren't any skilled jobs for them to do here.

lt's neoliberalism. It's destroyed the west.