watching a town completely die

[BlessedByTheShitFairy]

This is so sad really, the town where I grew up. I know many business folded during covid and many high street staples have been closing for years, but this is different.

It's a large town, over 400K population, had a bustling, varied and thriving centre for most it's history, has now lost, and many before covid:

Debs, Next, M&S, Topshop, H&M, Body Shop, its central post office, game shops, cafes, most youth related places such as skating, bowling, carts, ALL restaurants (no exaggeration), health food stores, 2 shopping centres, most pubs, it's huge market, several banks, nightclubs, a town centre co-op, Spar, book shops, many charity shops and all of it's high end hair salons. Even the Starbucks slid off and the main post office was reduced from around 10 staff to 1 and shoved into a tiny toilet sized cubicle on the periphery of the borough.

These have been survived and replaced by - pop up eyebrow/lashes salons, fast food joints, poundshops, phone-unlocking shops, cash converter type shops, Primark (it's only remaining clothes store), Iceland, and the rest if boarded up. Interestingly a ton of privately owned car parks have taken over the area and hardly anyone uses them. It is unrecognisable from even 7 years ago. It now only attracts crime, heavy drinking, and a much less diverse population.

I know many towns have experienced closures of big brands, and things are simply changing (the net, everything online, etc) but this is really extreme, especially in comparison to a few years ago, it was not particularly suffering a decline. I do know that the council slowly sold off everything over the years, and have sent 2 huge shopping centres to their doom by selling to overseas investors who never came and filled them, so they are like enormous empty spaces that attract crime.

I don't currently live there but my remaining family that do say they never go in to town anymore, and feel forced to buy everything from standalone supermarkets in other areas.
I live in a fairly average town that has seen changes but there are also attempts at rejuvenation. Things are still ok and thriving in the centre. I am also aware that many towns are coping ok, taking the rough with the smooth, even though these issues have increased across the uk over all.

What could have happened to this one? Why so desolate and different? It is like the council just gave up sold it off and turned away. It never used to suffer so much crime, and the sound of police and ambulances is constant around the area now. The town centre was it's pride and joy, had so much put into it (festivals, events), so I can't understand how it got so bad.
Even the people who you see there now are all strangely similar (dress the same, same behaviours) and the diversity has vanished. Curiously rents are still super high and I have no idea who is taking them, if at all.

I feel sad about it because I grew up there, and have so many good memories of my teens when it was thriving, packed and full of interesting places to go and shop. The pubs were visited from far and wide, and it had a great college, access to learning, and much more culture. Now it is lucky to hold on to a handful of football clubs and that's the only interest left. Where and why did everything just die? It was previously so bloody alive.

Things change but what is happening to some of these places is heartbreaking. I went to Crawley recently,it was beyond depressing( sorry for those who live there) a family member has lived there since it was made as a New Town.

Shopping trends do change,and the move towards online has been the biggest killer. However,we are all to blame in some ways by always going for the cheapest option,not the long lasting one.

I fear we will end up like many other countries,with a cookie cutter out of town retail area every 20 miles

Most of the shopping centres relied on a key shop to bring the masses in,debenhams being the one in crawley. Lose that and everything falls away

Local council in fighting plays a huge factor too,without local policies and initiatives places just drift and fail. We are being let down by our elected officials.

What many people dont realise is that many business premises are owned by investment companies,linked to pensions. They have to put up rents to keep the payouts to investors and pensioners. It's a vicious circle that they legally cant break. Cheltenham promenade is a great example of this. Prime retail shops,loads of footfall but the rents are too high for any profit,so they lay empty. If they were to lower the rents then the property value will decrease and the whole funds value would plummet and crash.

Seeing places decline is like seeing a loved one get old,its heartbreaking.

We as individuals need to be demanding more from our local councils to act now and transition and mitigate changes.

This has been happening for years, long before Brexit and COVID. When I was growing up we used to have a market in our town every Saturday, where you could buy the latest fashions at cheap prices. Then gradually cheaper clothes shops started appearing, Matalan, Primark etc and supermarkets started selling their own brand of cheap clothing. Over time markets disappeared because they couldn't compete. Then large out of town stores developed so some of these companies closed their shops in town in favour of one larger shop.

We now have huge shopping centres like Lakeside etc with free parking and everything under one roof. Add to this internet shopping and it's no wonder that our high streets are struggling.

I recently went in to our town centre on a Saturday and it was dead. Very sad but we only have ourselves to blame. If we want to keep our high streets we need to shop in them.

It's a vicious circle with a lot of places though, especially the town I'm thinking of where my parents live.

There are no nice cafes/restaurants/cafes in the town centre because nobody goes there to shop. And because there are no nice places to get a coffee, nobody wants to go into town. This is a historic high street with great architecture and a pedestrianised area which should/could be buzzing with craft fairs and farmers' markets and it's not.

Hardly anybody does and I didn't til a year or so ago. Obviously it's in the interest of the Tories to have everyone blame their local council rather than them for as much as possible. People tend to overestimate the money and power Councils have in general.

The problem is that there's shops, restaurants etc in east reach eg the Trafford centre. Towns and small cities have effectively become commuter dormitories in many parts of the country. I'm surprised about lack of restaurants though, our little town of 25,000 has 10 not including cafes, fast food and Wetherspoons. We don't have many clothing shops though - just an m&co, a couple of boutiques which are both expensive and have ugly clothes and a new look.

My dp used to live in Wigan, he's quite upset it's gone so downhill. Interestingly I regularly go to a small city in the ne and that's a lot more vibrant despite being on paper one of the poorest in the U.K. - being an hour from the next city keeps facilities busy

Our city is going the same way although there are plenty of eateries. The problem for me is that it seems like such a mission to go into town (when it's not very far) compared to going to a retail park (which is further) or the next city (which is further still). And you cannot get everything.

I think alot of stores are supported by the online presence and sometimes it's not sustainable.

It is sad though. When my DS was small we could easily go into the city for a whole day returning after supper!

It's a real shame OP so much has changed and not for the better. When I was young we used to get dressed up for a trip to town and there were lots of shops. Now it's nail bars (the ones that are chinese type), charity shops and coffee shops its grim! I see people shopPing in their pyjamas it's not nice anymore, society is changing/has changed and there is a not nice edge or feel about in many places I agree with you...the whole fabric of society is not as it was...so many reasons...loathe to see anything more.

What do you think the Councils should do? They have no power over business rates (set by central government) or rents (as you identify set by landlords and hugely overinflated beyond market value but linked to pensions). They've had their funding cut to the bone and spend the majority of council tax take on social care which increases every year. We have a Tory government, they're underfunding everything and hoping no one realises as they always do, I don't know what people expect?

It's not the council, the government or business though is it, it never is.

It is us.

Consumers dictate everything, the choices we all make as individuals are what drives everything. Our demands, our complaints our relentless pursuit of cheaper, quicker, newer.

Businesses, councils just react to it.

Governments just go with it because they are run by other people just like us.

Overall we are greedy, selfish and completely (and conveniently) ignorant of the fact we are the cause.

We always want more, just as long as it isn't us having to be the ones giving more.

Yes there are exceptions but they really are few and far between.

Because all that nice to have stuff costs money and generated no income. Councils have had their funding cut to the bone by our Tory government so they can't afford to be spending out on cycle paths, parks, fountains, etc sadly.

I think the reason people have been in denial is that town centre demise have been more pronounced in the old Northern mill towns, seaside resorts, etc., rather than the bigger city centres. Now it's hitting the bigger city centres, more people are becoming aware of what's been happening for decades!

Sounds like Blackburn (though larger, probably.) I don't know what the answer is but I agree it's very sad. It's as though the town has closed down.

Iamthewombat, whatever price the local council charge for high street car parks, they cannot compete with the conveniently located free parking offered by out of town shopping malls. Which are usually accessed from fast dual carriageways, not an agonisingly slow crawl through innumerable red traffic lights in 20mph street zones.
This applies to leisure activities too - I will not struggle in to my city centre and pay £4.30 in a dark creepy multi storey car park at night to visit the cinema, when I can go to the multiplex at the out of town leisure park, with free parking on a well lit and busy outdoor plaza.

By the way loss of shops isn't a northern/deprived area thing - Bristol has so many closed shops, even the main out of town mall. What is different though is that the city centre restaurant, bar and entertainment scene is booming, you struggle to get a table on Fridays and Saturdays in restaurants or bars, I've had to make reservations for mid June already for a special occasion because we need a table for 6

Lots of replies here, had a surprise visitor so not had chance to read many, will get back asap.
I am also glad to hear im not alone in feeling sad about what happened to wigan. I dont think it was at all bad when I left, it just wasnt exciting enough for me at 18

Knock it down and build green spaces like Stockton council have done. People don't shop in brick and mortar anymore..

the rise of the big 4 supermarkets started the decline. I remember when the first superstore opened round here when i was a teenager. Now we have loads. Online shopping. Amazon rang the death bell for many others, and now lockdown killed off the rest. All those companies have done really well out of lockdown. Record profits.

Lots of people keep saying the town i live in is dying. We have lost a few of the big names and its really unsettling.
Its as expensive as it ever was to pay business rates and rents in town centre shops though, so its really setting small businesses up to fail. You are still seeing hairdressers and nail bars though - the sort of things you cant get online or in supermarkets. Its as expensive as ever to park and get the bus.
I think unless the government does something to lower business rates for shops, then its going to be more and more unsustainable.
The only thing we can really do is to keep using the shops that we still have in towns. Support them. Dont give up

The Midlands city I live in seems to be sprouting a new barbers shop every time I go in. You wouldn’t think there was a big enough market for them to all survive (although cash in hand shops like barbers are often money laundering fronts, which may explain it).

I’ve also seen a big growth in rough sleepers in the city, more charity shops, the loss of the Debenhams, shops boarded up for months etc. What once was a very pretty, bustling regional hub with good tourist numbers now looks very down on its heels. The council are still trying their best - plenty of events still being organised - but the place just feels dirtier than it did and underwhelming.

Also, I have just learned that as of 1 June 2023, it will be illegal for me to drive my car into Glasgow city centre because of the ULEZ. Not a "if your car doesn't meet the standards there's a fee to pay", a "fixed penalty of £60 for first offence, increased fixed penalty for repeated offences". Train return tickets for 2 adults and 3 kids would be about £20. Fuel to drive in, and parking for 5 hours is about half of that. So where's the incentive to use public transport?

Given the utter shitshow which is Scotrail, which means I can't get a train home after 8.30pm, how will we be able to go into town for dinner or a show?

On one hand councils are saying they want to regenerate city centres. On the other hand, they're making it VERY difficult and expensive for people to get into town.

Business rate reductions won't do anything, neither will reductions in parking charges.

What you need to return is the quality footfall of years ago and I don't think we will ever see the like again.

When my local town centre was thriving in the 70's/80's you had a) less women in full time work especially of the older generation and also a lot more shift driven industries b) buses that ran often/were reliable/cheap c) very few cars d) no big freezers (maybe my background but no one had them. Basically factors which encouraged shopping on a little and often basis.

Over time the supermarkets expanded in both range and opening hours. A lot of shops moved to out of town units and took a massive chunk of footfall away.

This didn't help the independents who closed and weren't replaced and empty units don't attract larger chains who instead move to the out of town parks and some landlords couldn't reduce the rents (lower rent = lower book value = reductions in the balance sheet = banking covenant breaches) so the councils couldn't do that much.

Demographics change. Do the kids of today know the concept of the big shop?

Then the internet arrived and accelerated the decline.

Now we've got working from home which will take a hell of a lot more quality footfall and money away from the centres.

God knows. Leisure will attract some people back in but it's the Monday to Friday trading that's the problem. That I don't know how to fix.

It’s very sad, but it’s a reflection of what people can afford these days: Primark and charity shops.

It is what is put in place too though

example below with council wanting to put pay parking in, actually it was community who petitioned so in that regard it was us

But if they had overridden it the council would have damaged businesses

unlike pp the High St is busier than ever before, arty cinema, loads of cafes, restaurants, independent clothes shops, butcher etc

It feels more current t than some parts of central London these days