watching a town completely die

[BlessedByTheShitFairy]

This is so sad really, the town where I grew up. I know many business folded during covid and many high street staples have been closing for years, but this is different.

It's a large town, over 400K population, had a bustling, varied and thriving centre for most it's history, has now lost, and many before covid:

Debs, Next, M&S, Topshop, H&M, Body Shop, its central post office, game shops, cafes, most youth related places such as skating, bowling, carts, ALL restaurants (no exaggeration), health food stores, 2 shopping centres, most pubs, it's huge market, several banks, nightclubs, a town centre co-op, Spar, book shops, many charity shops and all of it's high end hair salons. Even the Starbucks slid off and the main post office was reduced from around 10 staff to 1 and shoved into a tiny toilet sized cubicle on the periphery of the borough.

These have been survived and replaced by - pop up eyebrow/lashes salons, fast food joints, poundshops, phone-unlocking shops, cash converter type shops, Primark (it's only remaining clothes store), Iceland, and the rest if boarded up. Interestingly a ton of privately owned car parks have taken over the area and hardly anyone uses them. It is unrecognisable from even 7 years ago. It now only attracts crime, heavy drinking, and a much less diverse population.

I know many towns have experienced closures of big brands, and things are simply changing (the net, everything online, etc) but this is really extreme, especially in comparison to a few years ago, it was not particularly suffering a decline. I do know that the council slowly sold off everything over the years, and have sent 2 huge shopping centres to their doom by selling to overseas investors who never came and filled them, so they are like enormous empty spaces that attract crime.

I don't currently live there but my remaining family that do say they never go in to town anymore, and feel forced to buy everything from standalone supermarkets in other areas.
I live in a fairly average town that has seen changes but there are also attempts at rejuvenation. Things are still ok and thriving in the centre. I am also aware that many towns are coping ok, taking the rough with the smooth, even though these issues have increased across the uk over all.

What could have happened to this one? Why so desolate and different? It is like the council just gave up sold it off and turned away. It never used to suffer so much crime, and the sound of police and ambulances is constant around the area now. The town centre was it's pride and joy, had so much put into it (festivals, events), so I can't understand how it got so bad.
Even the people who you see there now are all strangely similar (dress the same, same behaviours) and the diversity has vanished. Curiously rents are still super high and I have no idea who is taking them, if at all.

I feel sad about it because I grew up there, and have so many good memories of my teens when it was thriving, packed and full of interesting places to go and shop. The pubs were visited from far and wide, and it had a great college, access to learning, and much more culture. Now it is lucky to hold on to a handful of football clubs and that's the only interest left. Where and why did everything just die? It was previously so bloody alive.

There is a 20-mile wide corridor going East from Preston to Leeds which was devastated in the 1980s by a combination of loss of jobs and dignity and out of town shopping centres. Sadly any progress during that time was funded by the EU and has been rubbed out by COVID - but the truth is that there never was any complete recovery during that period. The same could be said of North Wales (loss of tourism) and South Yorkshire/North Derbyshire and urban parts of Cumbria - closure of mines.

I can't believe that people would still believe that this was unusual in some way - it's been a fact of life for almost 50 years now. Whole swaithes of Britain are in permanent decline, and the up and coming kids from those areas move away as soon as they have the chance.

I’m an hour from Manchester or Trafford centre and like many if I’m going shopping or teen is you want plenty of shops so it makes sense to go somewhere with plenty of choice not a local town.
Small town near me seems to do ok as a market town with boutique style shops, cafes etc.
Parking is a major issue. I go to hairdresser in a nearby deprived town, there a while as I have colour. Parking is free but you display a disk. Wardens aggressively patrol I wouldn’t risk going over 2 hour limit. So instead of going into shops after I rush off - eg last time I drove to b & q as I can’t stop in Wilkinson to pick up what I needed as my time is up. Madness.

I'm old enough to be surprised that people are surprised, I recall 30+ years ago when out of town retail parks were starting up discussing exactly this scenario, town centres were dying long before Covid, that's just made it worse. People complain about banks, libraries, post offices etc closing but looking at the footfall these places are very underused, so they close. Online shopping has added to this problem too, we don't even need to go to the post office to return stuff.

That’s so tough to see OP. My hometown was similar for 5-10 years but is now flourishing. I put it down to active citizens who run creative and arty events. For example, a group set up a covered street market in an unused old car garage. This attracted people into town, they spent money and then street food popped up, more cafes and shops opened around it etc. I think it requires a community organiser and sadly, in my experience, not a lot of places in England have people that are willing to do those things.

I disagree with the parking = more footfall. We need to move away from this thinking as it just continues car use for short journeys which is contributing to climate change. Where I live now, the Lib Dem council have invested heavily in bike lanes and bike storage which has increased the numbers cycling a lot

I live in a large city and I've watched it die over the 30 odd years I've lived here. So it's not just online shopping.
Where I am, Yorkshire its been a number of problems - poverty, high infant mortality and disabilities, an unintegrated population, poor leadership, national services (eg royla mail, hmrc etc) being moved to a neighbouring more affluent area, poor national reputation, poor transport links, a thriving criminal sector (leading to money laundering and shops that are 'fronts' only).... That's off the top of my head.
It's seriously depressing and not getting any better. I muse about moving to somewhere thriving but it's beautiful here and the people generally are lovely.
Commiserations @BlessedByTheShitFairy

I’m surprised that free parking is such a big deal for people. Is £5 for two and a half hours’ parking so very expensive really?

Ultimately, residents can’t have it both ways. You can’t have a charming and picturesque town centre that people want to spend time in (and Wigan, the subject of this thread, does have charming Victorian buildings) AND turn it into a massive free car park, with roads choked with traffic.

Somebody else complains that the nightlife in her local town has been killed off by the smoking ban. Great. Let’s reverse that then, shall we?

I used to live shopping in Liverpool City centre when I was younger, but we moved away and the nearest town is Chester.
Last time I went was four years ago, and the precinct that used to be really busy, was almost empty and a lot of the shops were empty too, it dead now that Debenhams has gone.
We have Broughton, Greyhound Park and Cheshire Oaks, all within easy reach by car.
There's restaurants and cinemas there, plus a large Tesco. But the main thing is free parking right outside where you want to go, no walking through town carrying heavy packages.

@Iamthewombat I think that's very expensive! Fortunately around here it is much cheaper than that. Actually it is not so much the paying but the faff of parking, getting dd out of car and then finding the right change or remembering my number plate, going back to the car and then the whole time having to check the clock to make sure I don't go over the time etc. I much prefer the ones where you take a ticket as you drive in and the just pay at the end for the time you are there.

Yup we had this, local council didn’t want to do anything about parking charges even when they actually owned facilites. Town centre now has nothing in it apart from people selling drugs.

@Iamthewombat - it's cheaper than £5 - maybe £2/£2.50 to park in a car park in Bromley for 2 hours.

I've lived in both Croydon and Streatham, and I used to love Pratts.

At one time, Croydon had 3 department stores, now it has none.

Approx 10 years ago, en route to visit MIL, I popped into Waterstones in Croydon, a few days before Christmas. What a shock! It was practically deserted, only a couple of customers in there. Brighton Waterstones is always heaving, and my local one (small town, only 16k population) is generally busy. All my inlaws go to Bromley to shop now.

It's so sad, to see towns just losing all their shops, and becoming ghost towns.

FYI councils don't set business rates, central government does so you might want to redirect your ire at the Tories.

It's been a perfect storm for a lot of towns - compounded in places where there's fewer jobs so not much spending money, which I'm guessing is the case in OP's hometown.

High Streets go tits-up easily because generally they're owned by a mishmash of people, not one owner, so it's hard to create a 'strategy' to improve it, though some areas manage this with Business Improvement Districts. So it can be hard for the council to have all that much positive influence over what happens there - what does happen, sadly, is that when things get empty they'll let to anyone. I live in what's supposed to be a nice area of suburban London, and generally it is, but we have the most low-end, crummy high street. The council has just let betting shops pop up all over the place, and recently one of those Merkur Slots places, despite saying they were on this big drive to make the area more family-friendly and salubrious, and all locals objecting on that count.

Everywhere is essentially oversupplied with shops now, (or has been until recently, and/or the ones there aren't the right size for modern needs as well.

But there is some hope, ironically enough, post COVID because as more people work from home, some local streets are getting more independent shops and niche businesses that can work with a busy daytime population, so lets hope we keep seeing more of that.

My local town is like this too, almost half the shops (possibly more) are empty. It used to be really busy,I used to struggle to park but now it’s easy to drive in, park and walk around what’s left of town. It feels like a ghost town, especially at one end where all the shops are boarded up. The only places that seem busy are coffee shops and Poundland. There are big plans to rejuvenate the town centre but I don’t see how it’s viable as people just don’t shop anymore unless it’s online.

@hamsterchump I didn't know this but it explains a lot!

What do you think the council could do? The majority of council tax is spent on social care, a bill which is only going up and up.

It's a shame but not sure what can be done to stop it really. As Primark don't have an online shop they'll likely remain on the High Street- I used to love going shopping with friends but it's different now isn't it; online shopping, out of town shopping places, supermarkets selling clothes and toys.

Here the town is doing well because none of them are chains, all are independent shops but reasonably priced. The council and the landlords have done various initiatives to encourage businesses to set up shop, for example one unit is home to several small businesses as a consortium I guess you'd call it. It's fairly small though, not a city centre.

Councils don't set rents (landlords do) nor business rates (central government does).

It’s not just Northern towns. I visited Windsor to shop the other day and was shocked at all the empty shops in the precinct. It all felt a bit empty and unloved.
Also Watford has lost its John Lewis and Debenhams in the shopping centre. Watford high street definitely has a different vibe now as well, just felt run down.
In the last ten years or so there is definitely a shift in how people shop, so this is going to impact town centres.

It's similar where I am OP
I'm NE, in a seaside Town (pop around 77,000)
Our once thriving Town Centre has basically gone now. There's only a few high street names left really. We do have large B&M's, Home bargains and Supermarkets sat just slightly outside of the main high street.
A Council that ruined a once busy and popular marketplace which used to attract people for miles around is now, at best a 20 stall affair open to the elements and just is not popular anymore. They also spent millions on a new bus and metro station and I still can't understand why - there's nothing left to attract people (apart from the beach in the summer) so it's used more for taking people to other places so they can shop for what they need.
It's such a shame.
I head to Newcastle or Metro centre now for physical clothes shopping or anything home related as do many others from my Town. We never needed to years ago as we could get all we needed right here.
It's sad.

Councils don't set business rates, central government does.

I hear you, OP. My parents still live in the town where my grandparents lived when I was growing up. Population around 35,000 people. It's a large "hub" - the town where many of the council offices are, where the main hospital for the area is. Should be a bustling, busy market town.

Except it's not. The town centre is so run down and grotty. The bigger shops which occupied high street sites have all gone - Debenhams, Woolies, Littlewoods, John Menzies, Next, Top Shop. All closed. The high street and the "shopping centre" is charity shops, vape shops, poundland and Claire's Accessories. There is a larger out of town shopping area which has pulled even more people out of town.

So many empty units on the high street, there are a few independent shops but they are struggling because people are not going to make a special trip into town when there's bugger all else there. People are more likely to travel for a proper day out shopping - Newcastle, Edinburgh and Glasgow are all 90 minutes away.

So depressing.

Before anyone else tells me how much it costs to park in their local town Iwas specifically referring to this post, upthread:

I try and go into town to support local businesses but the last two trips to my local town centre have been a nightmare…£5 for 2.5 hours parking

It’s a question of how much you want a decent local town centre, really, isn’t it? If you are saying that you are not prepared to pay £5, or £2.50, or £2, or whatever to park there, or you won’t park there because the parking machines are not your favourite kind (I much prefer the ones where you take a ticket as you drive in and the just pay at the end for the time you are there.), you can’t care that much.

Loss of shops is common in many places.....to be replaced with charity shops, nail parlours and lots and lots of betting shops. In all cases (although obviously covid a major factor) it is a consequence of 'use it or lose it'. If no-one shops there, the store/entertainment venue will close. As a matter of principle if I can get a thing locally (even from big supermarket) I will go in and purchase, even if it costs a little more. I can hear the shouting already that 'many people can't afford it'.......but I am fortunate in that an extra 10% on something for locally sourced is just about do-able. I am not a tech person (barely know how to navigate Mumsnet) so can't/choose not to order online.

People generally don't need to head to the High Street any more for stuff like banking, clothes shopping, buying birthday presents as it's all done online now. Sadly this then means for those who want or need to use the High Street, its less functional as the businesses can't make money being there anymore.