WIBU to ask why people are so weird about cry it out?

[Worried675]

OK, I know already how this is going to go and what views about this are on Mumsnet, but my question I guess is why people are so against cry it out methods? Recent research showed no differences in babies' behaviour/happiness/attachment etc. between cry it out and other sleep training methods. I'm always surprised by how strongly people are against it, especially as anyone born in the 80s or before probably were trained that way.

Enlighten me! Is using cry it out unreasonable? Why/why not?

Here to see the research………

It goes against my instincts and we have those instincts for a reason. I wasn’t sleep trained in the 80’s either, my mum coslept.

Leaving a baby to cry felt so horrifically wrong and unnatural that there was no way that I could bring myself to do it, even though I was horribly sleep deprived for years. But that wasn't the only thing that felt wrong and unnatural - the whole nuclear family set-up where I was effectively the only person caring for a baby (and later a baby and a toddler) was so clearly not how humans are meant to live and care for their young. I didn't need to sleep train my kids, but I really, really needed to live in a society where rearing children wasn't a separate activity, hived-off from wider society.

It's Mumsnet. Home of unnuanced debate and batshit opinions.

Not going take people seriously who say the only people allowed to kiss a baby are breastfeeding mothers.

That’s whack. Who is saying that?

If this is true why do they still cry in the day then? Surely they’d give up crying full stop if they truly learnt there was no benefit to it

But some people have different instincts. Are only your instincts valid?

But my main issue is how zealous people become about it and how they assume if you have a poor sleeper its because you just werent doing cry it out right.

Bingo. The presumption by some seems to be that CIO turns babies into emotionless drones. That’ll certainly be news to my son.

What always interests me about these pointless squabbles is not the actual issue being argued about, it's the dogma and the illogical justifications people give.

MY BABY, MY RULES (but other people have different rules so are there ever objectively sensible rules? What about if someone wants to tattoo their baby? MY BABY, MY RULES)

IT'S INSTINCT (but everyone has different instincts so who's right?)

This is what baby rearing manuals play on. Regardless of what they're proposing they all propose theirs is the only way.

I’ve never seen anyone say that. I have seen many people say sleep training doesn’t work at all, for anyone. Which, again, will be news to a lot of people who successfully tried it.

Link your recent research please.

I don't think sleep training is about getting babies to sleep through either.

It's more about sleep hygiene. Putting a baby to bed of an evening should not involve mum or dad spending 2 hours rocking/patting/sat by the bed singing or whatever (I genuinely know people who's entire evening is taken up by getting their baby or toddler to go to sleep).

The point is to "train" the child that bedtime is a quiet/stimulation free time and that delay tactics are pointless.

I would say both of your instincts are right. Each baby is different. If it feels wrong to leave your baby to cry then it probably is wrong for your baby/parent infant dyad. If it feel OK to you then it is probably OK for your baby/parent infant dyad. Some babies become really distressed when they can't see their parents , others might grumble and fuss a bit and then go to sleep.
I think think it is important to listen to our baby's cries and try and work out what they are attempting to communicate to us.

I’d love to see this “new research” that is the polar opposite to every other scientific finding for years 🤨
Leaving a baby to cry themselves to sleep doesn’t teach them anything except that no one will come regardless. They don’t begin to “self soothe”, they just give up trying because they learn no one will respond to their needs.

If this is true why do they still cry in the day then? Surely they’d give up crying full stop if they truly learnt there was no benefit to it

This. I sleep trained mine. They still cried when poorly, when they needed feeds and nappy changes, when their duvets fell off and they got cold in the night, when they had bad dreams etc. They just no longer fussed if I didn't sit with them for 45 mins as they fell asleep. And (5m old at this point) instead of waking every 45 mins to comfort suck just long enough to go into the next sleep cycle, they woke for a feed when they were actually hungry, once or twice a night.

They did self soothe. One used to snuggle into an old blanket and rub the label as they nodded off. My sister's two sucked thumbs.

Here's the recent research (or one reference I've seen).

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200310193305.htm#:~:text=Leaving%20an%20infant%20to%20'cry,at%2018%20months%20of%20age.

I think if your ‘instinct’ is to leave your tiny baby screaming alone without even trying to comfort them then that probably does need questioning honestly.

Ending up there as a last resort because you’re sleep deprived and desperate I can kind of understand, but for it to be your ‘instinct’ is pretty off. (Not talking about controlled crying/ withdrawal type approaches which whilst they weren’t for us, can see that they worked for others, but full on just leave them to cry even if they are so distressed they make themselves sick, which I know at least one book recommends).

I will get too upset @Worried675 if I give enough thought to this to explain why letting babies "cry it out" is so horrendous for the babies (and their mums), and I know that there are enough women on Mumsnet who I can trust to explain it both much more succinctly than me, and much more articulately too. So all I will say, is that,

neither my babies born during the 80's, or me born during the 50's, were left to "cry it out".

All the people saying ‘I did it and my child is fine’. How do you know your child wouldn’t have been great or amazing without CIO?

You have no direct comparison of your child using CIO versus without. And I would argue that a parent willing to use CIO will also be less emotionally attached & responsive in many other aspects of the child’s life from baby to adult.

This compound effect will have an impact on emotional well being, resilience, attachment and cognitive and social development. You have no way of knowing what the unintended consequences could be, and I wasn’t willing or able to take that risk.

I'm not sure CIO or especially sleep training is quite the demonic parenting that some make it out to be. However, like anything in parenting you have to take it in context with everything else that child is experiencing.

Will leaving a child to CIO every so often turn them into a serial killer? Probably not on its own. However everything else that a young baby instinctly craves and needs is also so much harder for parents to provide these days so the cumulation of things may well be unhelpful

I have never been able to leave my baby to CIO. I tried it for literally 5 minutes one night and couldn't stand the crying 🤣 I still lie in bed with her now at age 4 to go to sleep. You CAN still be firm in doing this though. I tell her it's sleeping time and then if she's trying to wind me up/be silly I ignore her.

I would implore every parent to read about attachment theory as it'll really make you reflect on how a baby's brain develops and what you're actually trying to acheive when managing your child's behaviour. A great book that's an easy (but harrowing) read is a book called 'the boy who was raised as a dog' It's a collection of short stories about children that a child psychiatrist has encountered and it really explains child development well

Yeah, there was a time when a great deal of my evening was taken up with getting my dd to sleep. It was pretty hard for a few years, but I consider it to have been well worth the effort. Ultimately, for me, it was about investing in the kind of relationship that I wanted to have with my dd.

It might be coincidence or it might not, but as a 17yo, she is one of the most confident and emotionally secure people that I've ever met and we have a much closer relationship than most of her peers have with their parents. Is that because we invested the time and energy in meeting her needs as a baby/ young child? Well, of course, we'll never know. Do I believe that the early investments in our relationship paid off? Yes, I do. Do I think that children who are left to cry will inevitably be less happy or confident as teens/adults? No, I don't. Would I want to risk feeling that early neglect of my child's needs had contributed to mental health issues or a lack of confidence further down the line? Personally, no I wouldn't.

@Mumwantingtogetitright

I'm not sure how such a study would even work?

How could you pinpoint mental illness in a teen to being left to cio on a few occasions as a baby?

There's lots of research though

None of it shows any evidence of harm to the baby or to bond.

If the evidence was there we would have found it by now.

Because the sound of my children crying for a cuddle goes right through me 🤷🏼‍♀️ it causes me far more stress than going into their room and giving them a cuddle.
It's done no harm to my eldest who goes straight to sleep and sleeps through the night. I'm certain that my youngest will follow suit.

Each to their own.

I think there’s a difference between allowing a five month old baby to cry themselves to sleep and allowing a 14month old baby to fuss and cry on and off until they fall asleep once you know they are fed, clean and have tried all other methods like rocking, cuddling etc and nothing seems to be working. Personally I was very against any type of sleep training but I do what I described above with my 14mo (while checking in occasionally to comfort her) and it has worked for us both (including her as she sleeps very well now)

Right, so only followed the kids until 18 months?