WIBU to ask why people are so weird about cry it out?

[Worried675]

OK, I know already how this is going to go and what views about this are on Mumsnet, but my question I guess is why people are so against cry it out methods? Recent research showed no differences in babies' behaviour/happiness/attachment etc. between cry it out and other sleep training methods. I'm always surprised by how strongly people are against it, especially as anyone born in the 80s or before probably were trained that way.

Enlighten me! Is using cry it out unreasonable? Why/why not?

When I hear a crying baby, doesn't even have to be my own, I cannot tune it out, it's just a pneumatic drill in my brain. The need to scoop them up and comfort them is insanely strong. Ignoring that just seems like madness.

I think people get confused about what 'cry it out' means because some people use it to mean a delayed response to crying (eg. Waiting a minute or two to see if baby winds down on their own), to the structured Ferber method (more controversial) to straight up neglect (letting them scream, cry, etc. And not responding at all).
I did the delayed response with all 3 of my kids. I did a modified version of the Ferber method with one DC because I was really struggling with sleep deprivation and had no choice but to go back to work early on. I would never leave a baby in distress and not see to their needs, however. So I can see we all have different limits, from the parent who will respond instantly to every cry to the parent who will ignore a child in distress (which is neglect). Most sleep training/CIO methods lie somewhere in the middle, and are really delayed response or minimal response not no response to crying. I think that's why some people have such a strong response because the most extreme CIO method would be actual neglect which isn't a method at all

What research are you referring to OP?

It caused me literal physical pain whenever my babies cried and I couldn't help them, so why on earth would I find it reasonable to put myself and my baby through such a deeply unpleasant experience?

I find it odd when people a) can't tell the difference between a baby fussing and screaming b)can't recognise that babies don't always want what's good for them.sometimes they are fussing because they are tired, but find mum or dad quite stimulating, there's a fine line between responding to their cries and not allowing them to be free of stimulation so they can fall asleep.

The point about cio is not all babies are the same. Some babies will grumble a bit put in the cot because they don't want to sleep, they've got fomo, they are tired. You leave them to "cio" because they actually need sources of stimulation removed, and they fuss for about 3 mins before nodding off.

Some babies aren't ready to fall asleep without assistance, and will scream when left. The point being to recognise a cry of need vs the grumble of a tired baby.

I think because it just feels wrong to leave a baby to cry.

Also there is misunderstanding about what the method actually involves. It doesn't mean that you never go to your child at night ever again, or leave them alone if they are hungry or ill.

I have seen the research and there is no evidence that cry it out done at home by otherwise loving parents causing any difference in mental or physical health in the short or long term. And they found fewer mental health problems in the mother.

Which is logical really. Three nights of some extra crying is not going to be influential in the bigger picture of being loved and cared for every other day and night. Otherwise babies who were ill or cry in their car seat etc would all be permanently affected too.

Plus the effects of sleep deprivation on both mother and child should not be underestimated

Also after a few months babies do also have wants as well as needs. As parents we cannot (and maybe should not) have as our goal meeting all their wants. Sometimes they want an all night party with mummy. It's not necessarily what they need.

OP, are you talking about cry it out (where baby literally cries until it’s so exhausted and falls asleep) or controlled crying (where parent goes in intermittently to sooth and settle baby who is tired but won’t sleep)?

I know many people wouldn’t agree with either of those approaches but to me there is a world of difference.

what research OP? We know that stress hormones have a negative effect on babies so there is research which suggests cry it out will have negative effect. Obviously leaving a baby to cry is abhorrent and therefore unethical so I imagine you will struggle to find any peer reviewed research but if you do do find any let me know.

Yes! I think it's where the "just cosleep" advice also misses the mark with many. Some babies obviously respond to that really well but my first especially just found it over stimulating. I did do Ferber with him and he has slept through ever since (now 5)

One of the things I find funny is that I have been mocked on here for not doing long car journeys with mine as babies/toddlers because they cried so much in the car - but the received wisdom seems to be that that's an ok type of crying whereas something that helps everyone sleep is evil.

Does anyone actually do proper CIO these days? Personally I’ve never come across anyone that has. CC, where you pop in ever few minutes to reassure yes, but never actual CIO. I was born in the late 80s and I’m not sure anyone even did it then tbh, my mum said she did the disappearing chair thing with us as recommended by the HV.

How awful i feel (like ripping my skin off!) when my baby is crying and I can’t pick them up to console them (eg in a car) shows me that leaving my baby to cry on purpose would never be an option for me. The fact that most people have a problem with letting their baby cry indicates it’s pretty unnatural/wrong to do it.

There is something to be said for the point where your baby is inconsolable, won’t co-sleep (and is mobile enough to be unsafe and awake in your bed) and isn’t actually getting the sleep they need to develop healthily.

if it was the choice between rocking baby to sleep then gently putting them down in their cot and ‘cry it out’ then I would choose the former. Sometimes, ‘cry it out’ is the absolute last resort, and if you are informed, prepared and manage it correctly (naps, lighting, bedtime routine), then it works and it works quickly.

@Classicblunder

some car journeys are unavoidable though. Mine have always hated the buggy so I take a sling if they cry; but there is no sensible alternative on the school run than the car, or to our paediatrician who is quite far away. Unfortunately sometimes you need to take the car - if you have several children you can’t just sit at home indefinitely/avoid all car journeys!

Why are we training babies? That in itself is odd. Then to train your baby to think that when they cry, no one will come? Bonkers.

will be nice when people stop expecting to give birth to a child who sleeps from 7 until 7.

I know I don’t sleep through the night without waking most nights so why would I expect a child to do it? Yes it’s tiring, if you don’t want to get up with a child, don’t have one. That’s what confuses me the most.

Of course but we did avoid journeys of longer than 2 hours for UK holidays as that was doable if we did it at nap time and I have been told that that was precious/ridiculous.

It also has played a role in us not buying a car (we are in London) for now and only renting one occasionally

My BIL and SIL in the US were advised to do so by their pediatrician in the last 5 years

www.thenewbasics.com/en/book-excerpt/sleep/

I think there’s actually something pretty harmful to the parent (usually the mother) with the excessively emotional narrative that if you let a baby to cry it will have terrible attachment issues and will grow up to be a broken child and parent. Most parents are pretty responsible and the point at which they let their baby cry; they’ve usually exhausted all other options and are absolutely broken by the lack of sleep. You read threads on here when mothers say they’ve nearly crashed their car / had severe PND caused by lack of sleep. You also read threads where the mother is actually angry, tired and upset with the baby and the advise is to pop the baby in the cot where they’re safe and walk away for a few minutes. It doesn’t do the baby any harm to cry, that’s what they do!

letting a baby cry for a few minutes at a time to encourage them to self settle, to the point where they are sleeping through the night within a few days is really beneficial to the child who is actually getting a proper sleep, as well as to the parents. That’s a good thing and actually results in far less crying overall than a few nights of concentrated crying.

A few minutes of crying at a time won’t undo a bond of months or years that the parent has with the child.

Do posters who are against CC think the baby never ever cries again?!

Bloody NCT have a lot to answer for this! Seems to be ‘the goal’ to be the first one to get your baby sleeping through, pop them down at 7, greet them again at 7 the next day. It’s an absolutely bullshit ideal. When the women in my group say their (out babies are 8 months) have slept 7-7 since 8 weeks I think two things

1. you lying cow
2. do they ‘sleep through’ or do you just not go to them? Because it’s not the same thing. At all.

The "just co-sleep" advice winds me up something awful. But that's because I couldn't do it safely (DD did not meet the criteria, having a low birth weight). In retrospect, I wish someone had told me sooner that it was ok if she cried in her Moses basket for five or even ten minutes! My mum (who did in fact co-sleep, but completely understood that this wasn't an option for us) pointed this out to me in the end - but discussions like this one meant it took me a while to believe her.

I have no beef with co-sleeping, or with sleep training. But I do think there are people (mostly on the co-sleeping and no sleep training side) who are so absolutely convinced that theirs is the only way that they cannot imagine that their advice might not work for everyone. Babies are different, and parents are different. It's not one size fits all. Do what you need to do, safely.

Would you leave an adult crying inconsolably in a room to teach them a lesson?

Presumably not. That would be abusive.

My DC were born in the 80s, and I was certainly not taught to let them cry out, and would never do so.
In relation to sleep 'training', babies (like adults), stir, change position and then sleep again, so I would generally leave a maybe just a few minutes only but then go, especially if breast feeding a young baby. (The difference then is that my young DC were in a separate room, with a baby monitor, though now babies are usually with the mother for the first 6 months).
I once asked my mother about the then theory of feeding babies every four hours only - rather than on demand (ie those DC born in the 50s etc), and she told me that she generally ignored that advice, as there was no way one can ignore a crying baby.

I don't mean, incidentally, that I would have routinely left DD crying for five or ten minutes. But it probably would have been helpful to know that if I did it occasionally it wasn't going to hurt her.

Same. Suffered from anxiety and insomnia since I was a small child.

My mum tells me I was a terrible sleeper and used to scream and scream. I honestly have vivid memories from about the age of 3-4 of being terrified of sleeping and lying in the dark scared to move.

I've wondered if cry it out left an impact on me this way, or if I'd have been like this anyway.

It’s not something I could do. That said, I think the studies showing that it’s bad for babies were flawed - they were based on children in Romanian orphanages who were neglected in every way, rather than on babies who were otherwise fed and safe and loved.

That made me wonder - there have been several situations where I’ve not been able to respond to my baby’s crying immediately and have had to leave him for a while. For example, when I’m driving or my toddler has fallen over and needs me more urgently than the baby. It makes me feel ill to leave him crying for any amount of time but sometimes you don’t have a choice, particularly with second or subsequent babies. From a baby’s POV there’s no difference between leaving them to cry out of choice and leaving them to cry because you have no choice. So if crying causes brain damage then my second baby is likely to be more brain damaged than my first because he’s been left to cry more often than my first ever was, just because he’s my second.