WIBU to ask why people are so weird about cry it out?

[Worried675]

OK, I know already how this is going to go and what views about this are on Mumsnet, but my question I guess is why people are so against cry it out methods? Recent research showed no differences in babies' behaviour/happiness/attachment etc. between cry it out and other sleep training methods. I'm always surprised by how strongly people are against it, especially as anyone born in the 80s or before probably were trained that way.

Enlighten me! Is using cry it out unreasonable? Why/why not?

Bit the OP seems to be (I’m interested if they are actually going to come back to explain further) CIO. Not controlled crying. Leaving your baby to cry itself to sleep. Most parents know the difference between leaving your baby a few minutes see if they really need anything or assume they don’t just leave them to sob themselves into oblivion.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Love-Matters-affection-shapes/dp/0415870534/ref=mpssa111?adgrpid=53548337496&gclid=CjwKCAjw4ayUBhA4EiwATWyBrhEJz9bXrrq4N0Dc6VMZV1YateS3kszl5XhV3azA0at4PtmaTWI0ZxoCVqkQAvDBwE&hvadid=259098660131&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9046258&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2034808945821144901&hvtargid=kwd-314689591342&hydadcr=216399_1763690&keywords=%27why+love+matters%27&qid=1653373425&sr=8-1

An interesting book for anyone who wants to know more about the development of babies brains and the role of stress

I’d love to see this “new research” that is the polar opposite to every other scientific finding for years 🤨
Leaving a baby to cry themselves to sleep doesn’t teach them anything except that no one will come regardless. They don’t begin to “self soothe”, they just give up trying because they learn no one will respond to their needs.

This is why people don't like it. The reality is that you only contemplate it when you are pretty desperate. And if the choice is 3 nights of some extra crying or ongoing problems lasting years leading to depression, relationship breakdown...

'will be nice when people stop expecting to give birth to a child who sleeps from 7 until 7.'

Absolutely this.

Those saying it's harmful to suggest a baby left to cry will develop a disturbed attachment (they might, and they might not - no way of knowing in advance for each individual child, so why take the risk?), what about the opposite narrative, the one that suggests if a baby isn't sleep 'trained' they'll never learn to sleep? The 'rod for your own back' crap? I bed-shared/co-slept (bedside cot arrangement basically) safely with all three of mine, and bf them at night until they stopped night feeding (well over age 2 for two of them), and they learned to drop off - with a parent in the room, at first - just fine, and two of them never came into our bed at night (except when ill) beyond the age of three or so (while one still kept coming until about 9. Individual temperaments, again).

Yes, there were moments of exhaustion. But I was not going to be made to feel I was doing it all wrong/setting myself up for some kind of eternal slavery because I did what felt right to me. IMO a lot of these narratives come from an idea that somehow you have to get the better of children/come out on top/be in control. Authoritarian at heart.

warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/pressreleases/leaving_your_baby/

This research?

Do you mean cry it out or do you mean controlled crying?

Cry it out is wrong.

Never going to your baby no matter how long they cry until they just stop bothering to cry is hugely neglectful. Leaving them crying now and again is unavoidable but never responding to their cries, night after night after night, is neglect.

Controlled crying, although not something I ever considered personally, is completely different to just ignoring them every single night until they just stop what is a natural and important infant communication.

Controlled crying literally saved my life and probably that of my child's. He'd be worse off without a mother than a bit of crying.

I'd never CIO though.

There has never been any research showing it was bad though. The Romanian orphanage stuff isn't relevant.

It's also not true that babies who have been sleep trained "learn that no one comes when they cry so they give up". They still cry if they are cold, hungry, ill etc, they just sleep better at night so cry less then .

I couldn't do cry it out, but have always done controlled crying. If DD was fed, clean, safe, but tired/overtired and fighting sleep then to me i'm not ignoring her needs, as she needs to sleep. I'm not a parent that will sit and cuddle her forever as that isn't helping her in the long term. I also don't want to sit and cuddle her forever i would just feel resentful.

To me she isn't learning that no one comea when she cries, just that there are sometimes she is fine on her own in her cot and its time to sleep.

Pregnant with 2nd and planning the same

My husband and I we both born in the 80s and our parents never left us to cry it out.

It goes against all of my instincts as a parent.

The longest running study into the effects of sleep training is only 6 years old, so we don't know I there will be any long term effects.

The research is pretty flawed, it would be unethical to force parents to leave their babies to cry it out, so parents were allowed to swap out to the control groups at any time in the studies. Parents are usually pretty intuitive so it is likely that the babies who would have been the most distressed by cry it out swapped out.

I'm 35. Yes I wanted them to sleep but not crying themselves to sleep. That would cause me anxiety. My job as a parent is to respond to their needs and a crying baby needs it's caregiver. There are other more gentle sleep training methods that I would consider first.

I was born in the 1970s and certainly wasn't left to cry it out. My mum knew then that it was cruel and she didn't want to parent in that way.

I never even considered leaving dd to cry, even though she was a terrible sleeper. It goes against every parental instinct, and would have been directly contrary to the kind of relationship that I wanted to build with my child. I have yet to see any research that proves that there is no long term impact.

I did it. My twins are healthy and happy teenagers now. It worked for us. It took 2 days at 9 months and then they slept through every night after that. Personally I think children raised by parents who are getting enough sleep benefit massively. I know I couldn't have been the parent I wanted to be if I had been completely frazzled.

Hmm I'd like to see the research OP, genuinely I'm not being smart I would like to see it as this topic also intrigues me

Used it at 7 months as a last resort. Absolutely zero regrets. It worked straight away and 3 years later he’s healthy, happy and developmentally sound.

So please spare me the “it doesn’t work” bs. For some it does, and is a lifeline. the hysteria around it on this board is perverse.

I was born in the 80s and wasn't sleep trained. Neither was my brother, who didn't sleep though until 2.5.

I read research that sleep training doesn't improve sleep in the long run, which was interesting. It doesn't totally seem to fit but all the people I know who did CC had to repeat it at points e.g. After baby was ill or after going away.

It felt too wrong to respond to my baby happily all day and then not at night. I did night wean both of mine with some tears but being comforted, which I preferred. I understand some people are desperate with multiple wakings (I had 6-10 a night but I know others are worse) but I get annoyed by those who say 'I really need my sleep' as a reason why they are doing CIO to eliminate 1 or 2 night wakings. I met a mum who shut them in their room overnight at about 3m and left them to it. It made me so sad! But I appreciate most don't do this!

The hysteria on MN is weird to me. People seem so judgemental about it - but then other threads are always quick to point out judgemental posters.

Should it be a case of what works for each individual?

I think more needs to be done to lower new parent’s expectations as to how much a tiny baby ‘should’ sleep without needing comfort. It’s so totally normal and yet we are led to think there’s something wrong when we have one that wakes many times a night.

I'm with you op.

People will often deny the research or not understand it because they dont actually understand how 'stress hormones' (cortisol) works

They think research based on true neglect and abuse can be applied to a baby crying which is obviously nonsense

I didn't go through the hassle of pregnancy and child Birth to leave my baby wailing in the hopes he will go to sleep. Its unnecessary and quite frankly cruel in my opinion and my baby didn't sleep through till 5 months and still needs to be held to sleep. My Jon as a parent is to respond to his needs. Not to leave him cry

I agree with you OP - I have seen so many stories of people at the end of their tether who finally tried some method of sleep training (most of which involve crying of some kind so I personally don't think there's a huge difference between CIO and Ferber) and suddenly their baby sleeps most of the night and only wakes when they actually need feeding etc. The majority of threads where the OP is exhausted and has 'tried everything' to get sleep they usually refuse to do CIO/Ferber. It does not work for every baby of course.

There are a lot of sites that are very negative about it based on research from orphanages where the babies were left all the time and other studies looking at cortisol levels but as far as I'm aware the only long term studies looking at sleep training rather than neglect show no difference in outcome thus far (like the Warwick one above).

I'm not denying any research, I'm just saying that I haven't seen anything that would persuade me that my instincts in this are wrong. Where are the long term studies that follow people into the teenage years and adulthood that enable us to measure the long term impact on mental health and relationships etc? If they exist, I will gladly read them, but as someone else has said, most of the studies at the moment don't seem to follow the children beyond early childhood.

Because you don't need to train sleep it's a natural process that the baby will fall into how their body wants and needs it.

I personally think it's cruel.

If you search on Google scholar 'extinction baby sleep' you will find lots of research that shows no negative effects from sleep training. If you read each studie closely you will see that there are no studies that look beyond six years (this area of research is in its infancy), so we don't know if there will be any effects that show up later on, such as are adults who were sleep trained more prone to depression, anxiety or addictions. If you read the studies in depth you will also see that parents were able to swap out of the sleep training groups into the control groups at any point (due to ethics, you can't force a parent to leave their baby to cry) so this will skew the results.