Why are people on here so pressed about the existence of SAHMs?

[DaffodilsandCoffee]

It’s fair enough to point out the existence of certain downsides are risks, but there seems to be so much spite and resentment on here. Why are some posters do angry at the existence of women who prefer to do all the childcare themselves rather than outsource some of it? Also, are they equally as angry at SAHDs? (I know it’s not as common but I personally know 3)

I think what strikes me is the lack of understanding of one side to the other.

for example. A couple of posters said “they are jealous of me” . This indicates those posters simoly cannot comprehend at all why any woman would chose to work, that it would be a choice, and it seems aimed only at women too. Which likely gives an insight into their own work prior to kids. This is supported by the many threads on here where women are financially dependent on their partner and screwed as the relationship ends, or the man becomes disrespectful or abusive, but there was never any career there to go back to.

on the other side, women who work find being at home difficult mentally, they do not wish to do the majority of the domestic chores or have no financial independence or agency, so they can’t comprehend why some women chose it, and assume it’s likely as they had shit jobs and didn’t like working, to such an extent staying home becomes a better choice for them personally. This is supported by the many threads on here from women arguing why they couldn’t possibly work now the kids are at school.

Obviously the above excludes where someone has to due to finances or disabilities etc,

so you take a genuine lack of understanding. Throw in some goady comments and a bun fight starts..,

I loved your post Aussiegirl. You're right, you can't win, so why not have some fun with it? I also noticed DH getting loads of praise for hands on parenting (he was paid full time and his boss basically turned a blind eye to him working part time) while I got paid part time, worked more than full time and got no praise for doing the exact same things and all the organisation.

I am an Economics teacher and since I entered teaching (having my DC soon afterwards) I have had more and more opportunity to reflect on the Marxism I was taught at university (the Economics department of my university was an absolute hotbed of Marxism in the 1990s). I thought they were fossils at the time but now I'm not so sure.

Women operate in a system where we (collectively) have less power than men so of course tend to fight with each other and blame each other. Female solidarity and groups are viewed with suspicion. Meanwhile if we have a decent bloke it's all 'Not my Nigel' because we know damn well the system isn't fair but we're not doing too badly out of it personally. 'False consciousness' I believe the Marxists called it.

What exactly was nasty about it. Or is that you deem any opinion different to your as nasty.

@Rosebuud that sounds about the sum of it.

Regarding jealousy, my husband once said (not in a nasty way) that he feels jealous when I send him photos when I’m with the kids out in the sun. But I’ve asked him separately if he’d have any interest in both of us working part time, and it was a flat no because he feels it would severely limit his career.

I used to work in the same industry as him (in a different role) but honestly I was already getting a bit sick of it before having children. He’s more driven than me. I do intend to return to work in a couple of years but I want to retrain.

I know that the fact I’ve been the one to abandon my career has obvious stereotypical gender dynamics, but it is also a reflection of our personality types and our actual wants and priorities. Before I had my “career” jobs I worked as an au pair and nanny for a while, and I always loved it. When I was a teenager I told my mum I wanted to work in a nursery and she talked me out of it as insufficiently ambitious.

If that opinion is “you are lazy and feckless, deserve eye rolling if your husband ever treats you badly and your life choice makes you a disgrace to women everywhere” I do consider that quite nasty, yeah.

Tbh I think I’ve got a pretty clear understanding of how these conflicts play out and what people on each side are provoked by now. I’m glad I asked
I think that the only think that matters is that whatever choice one makes, you have to be prepared to face the consequences.

If you decide your career is more important than anything and work 50h week hardly ever seeing your kids, don't come crying when they are teenagers and prefer to spend time with their friends, that you are being treated unfairly by them.

Same of you opt to be a sahm, don't play the victim when you decide to leave your husband and find yourself not getting as much out of the divorce as you'd planned.

Yes. You answered your own question. Money changing hands brings a set of responsibilities and targets. For nannies, carers and all other professions. No point getting depressed about it, women (at least in western countries) need to take ownership of their own financial independence since the opportunities are there. And not restrict themselves to work that women have always done - paid or otherwise.

I don’t know, though. I think it’s ok to be frustrated that this trade off does exist. I think it’s possibility to envisage a society where that’s less the case.

So it was one comment by someone a bit unhinged? Though not nice at all. But this topic brings out the worst from both sides.

If you decide your career is more important than anything and work 50h week hardly ever seeing your kids, don't come crying when they are teenagers and prefer to spend time with their friends, that you are being treated unfairly by them.

Same of you opt to be a sahm, don't play the victim when you decide to leave your husband and find yourself not getting as much out of the divorce as you'd planned.

Are these the only choices. My SAHM friends have pensions & good relationships etc. I don't think I know any mothers & fathers who work 50 hours a week & don't see their dc.

I work p/t & DH wfh 2/3 days a week so we both have plenty of time with dc. This is the norm amongst my peers.

This is my ideal set up once my youngest is 3. My husband currently works from home twice a week so we’ve got the first part of it, providing his work don’t eventually demand them back in full time.

a lot of it is jealousy but they will never admit and it and they will go out of their way to deny this is the case.

I've been both. I chose to go back to work because I was bored being a sahm. I needed something for my brain.

I was a stay at home mum for 10 years as we have multiple children. We could afford it so why not. Would I do it again? Probably not. It was absolute insanity to put myself in a financial position where I was reliant on a man.

Because they are jealous? I have three Mum friends who work full time but would love to be SAHM's but they are mortgaged to the maximum. One needs to move somewhere bigger but has no chance of affording it in a few years time unless she works ft and one has an older child at university that needs paying for.

Why would you roll your eyes at them being frustrated at not returning to a senior level position, or if their husband looks at them differently?

I don’t know, though. I think it’s ok to be frustrated that this trade off does exist. I think it’s possibility to envisage a society where that’s less the case
Sadly the problem is that too many make choices that benefit them in the present ignoring the implication in the future.

We are all entitled to make the choices that are right for you, be it being a sahm or ft career working one, but when your situation is the direct outcome of the choices you've made, you're not a victim and you can't just blame others.

On the divorce forum almost all mums divorcing a well off husband speak about sacrificing their career. Here you admit yourself that you were planning to leave yours even before kids and wanting to train again.

We make many more choices for ourselves then we like to admit when things don't go to plan.

Personally I think anybody who is rude about someone else's legitimate life choices is a dick. You can work full time. You can stay home and look after your children. You can work part time. But if you start claiming other people who don't organise their days exactly like you do are idiots then you have got to realise you will come across as unpleasant. All the angst about other people's finance is not genuine. Plenty of people work low paid jobs that wouldn't support a family if they became single income families. SAHPs could get lots paid jobs if they needed them. Plenty of SAHPs have other avenues of income such as renting property or would receive enough maintenance for their children if they split with their spouses.
People don't really comment on full time working parents in my experience as it is the norm and expected. Anybody who does comment would just look foolish. This whole 'each to their own but it'll end in disaster' is just nonsense. If a couple split up both parents have to adjust no matter their circumstances as it is difficult supporting a family financially, practically and emotionally on your own. You would hope that other than in cases of bereavement children would still have 2 parents who were looking after them just not as part of a couple.

Ummmm - loving the dramatics here😂.

Nobody ‘has kids and can’t be bothered to raise them’ and nobody ‘looks after their kids 24/7 and has no money/autonomy’.

There are 168 hours in every week, if you spend 37 of them at work you still spend the majority of the time (131) parenting, they don’t turn off at 6pm and turn back on at 7am.

I sent one dc to nursery for 12 hours a week whilst on second mat leave and the pearl clutchers started nattering 😂😂 I still spent the other 156 hours parenting them…

I loved the help I got from nursery.
I love the stimulation from work.
I love my babies.

they’re not mutually exclusive

If you decide your career is more important than anything and work 50h week hardly ever seeing your kids, don't come crying when they are teenagers and prefer to spend time with their friends, that you are being treated unfairly by them.

Same of you opt to be a sahm, don't play the victim when you decide to leave your husband and find yourself not getting as much out of the divorce as you'd planned.

See I find both these POV a bit odd.

I do have the career that means working 50 hours a week. Often the extra hours once the kids were in bed. A few years as a lone parent. My DD is 18 and our relationship is excellent. She has a fabulous group of friends that she loves to spend time with. But she also opts to spend time with me as well, a lot, entirely through her own choice. She is an amazing young woman. I am immensely proud of her.

Its why I roll my eyes at stories of men who haven’t connected with their kids because of their ‘big job’. I also roll my eyes at those who make excuses for them. If they really wanted to do both, they can.

I also know Sahms who are real partnerships with their husbands. Both having equal access to money, ensure their pension is taken care of and that they have their own money. When these marriages have ended these women have been fine, financially.

These are not the only 2 outcomes.

Being at home with kids is bloody hard work and its boring too. IMO

For decades, women were gaslit into thinking they had to do ALL the housework and ALL the cooking because the man had the hardest day in the office or work-place. When he came home it was the woman's duty to have supper ready for him. Because that was a fair diviision of labour.

Now we know thats bull shit. I figured that out after 6 months and f mat leave and was happy to resume my career and share the household
Load equally with DH

Id take career any day.

Kudos to the SAHP. Its bloody hard

I'm one of those who have worked 50 hours or more a week since before the kids were born. Yes, it was partly because I like my job and partly because it was shit growing up poor.

It's a bloody good job I did, as dh has recently been made redundant and we are now on one wage. We are now going to be as badly off as I was growing up, but we'd be properly fucked if I wasn't working.

I don’t think they are “pressed about the existence” of sahm. The only thread I’ve seen on this recently is the one about the poster’s mil who said being a sahm is the same as living on benefits. i think mn is generally pretty favourable to sahm.

there is a bit of a feminist point I suppose. We often see sahm in the relationship board who end up with very little after divorce. Also many women who are sahm long term are unable or unwilling to leave bad relationships for financial reasons. So generally being dependent on someone else for income doesn’t work out for lots of women and leaves them vulnerable.

It is also very much a “traditional” role for a woman. There’s an issue with perpetuating the role of “stepford wife” and husband with a “big important job”. It can also be harmful to women who do want to or need to work in those roles - the expectation is still there that there is someone at home looking after the kids which is much less likely to be true for women. That being said, many women are breaking down these barriers and demanding work life balance in senior roles. Yet so few men are doing the same (some are to be fair) and are just claiming their jobs are too big and important to do their share with kids or household chores. And you do see sahm on mn defend this position of their dh simply being too important to get out of work to spend time dealing with kids or home (while their female colleagues are likely managing it).

so I think it’s like the name change on marriage threads. Of course it’s a choice but choosing to be a sahm can generally perpetuate gender roles which are harmful to women as a class.

I stayed at home for a period to look after dds on benefits (have always been a higher rate taxpayer and lost my job). Yet I was a single mum on benefits and people certainly had a different attitude to me than if I were a sahm with a husband (although I have certainly paid my way and continued to do so after a break). I think that says something about how we value women.

@almatitchmarsh

It wasn’t hard work for me my husband still did the fair share of cooking, cleaning, bathing the kids etc. He didn’t take that old fashioned stance.

I had a lot of friends too who were off work so my days were incredibly social. I wasn’t bored and I rarely stayed in.

I work now in a career I enjoy but when I look back to those years I most certainly wasn’t bored. I can see how some women would be if all they were doing was cooking, cleaning and not leaving the house.

it’s mainly a choice made from a position of privilege

This is obviously really irritating if you’re
a mother who feels like you’re missing out on time with your kids .

The vast Majority of people have no choice

so when the SAHM wants a moan, they get no sympathy which then upsets them too

so everybody starts scrapping

life is hard if you’re in either position.

ime most mums are insecure about their choices at some level, and we’re living in a society where we can’t do right anyway and the judgement is constant*

Yes, I think the pain of insecurity fuels the worst of the criticism. Whatever you choose, you have to sacrifice something - whether it’s time with children or work history/money. You can’t maximise both at once, so choices must be made and then you have to live with them. To complicate things, sometimes the choice is removed from you: if you have to work to pay the bills or if you have to stay home because your child has special needs, etc.

Personally, I would like to be an at-home parent as much as possible if I have children. It is the ‘ideal’ in my mind. My husband and I are in a place to make it possible, but Mumsnet regularly makes me feel insecure about these plans. I know I would enjoy homemaking/being a mum and I’m not worried about dependence on DH. There are some financial risks of course, but we would take steps to mitigate those. My biggest fear is social ostracism - people thinking I’m lazy, dumb, boring or worse. I don’t talk about my plans for the same reason.