Guardian is publishing Russian Propaganda

[Swayingpalmtrees]

AIBU to be very disappointed that the Guardian has resorted to publishing Russian propaganda. It was shocking to read, largely inaccurate and wholly from the Russian perspective. I am all for listening to all sides, but there was no effort to understand how Ukraine feels, Ukraine's objective is clearly to win the war and reclaim their nation, and blaming the western leaders for arming Ukraine and the bloodshed caused by the Russians is somewhat misleading, Ukraine have every right to defend themselves.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks

A Ukrainian perspective on the article

twitter.com/DMokryk/status/1519424770818940929

I have no connection to the area but I work wit organisation that has a rather good grasp on the geopolitical situation.
Whenever people start political conversations with ' I feel...', the opinions coming forthwith are not worth much🙄. Unless one is talking to/about loved ones et al.

These days, with the rise of no platforming, and rewriting of various perspectives in history, or 're understanding, and how it relates to modern day perspectives in democracy, would make an intriguing study, if someone was to write a dissertation on the issues.

“The quickest way to end a war is to lose it.” -George Orwell
I'm only asking this question, and I'm not advocating one way or another,
How effective would it stop the conflict if one side or another surrendered ?

Thank you all for such brilliant points! Especially for your twitter link hardy clearly the Ukrainian perspective is the most important and should be respected, they are the ones that are suffering the worst atrocities and are having their lives shattered.

birdy The issue with Ukraine giving an inch lets say some part of their country to Putin, do you really imagine he will simply stop there? His intention was to take all of Ukraine and that hasn't changed, and indeed in the last few days he has also spoken of invading Moldova and 'assisting' Russian speakers there. We have a new Hitler on our hands, and you don't get peace through talks with people like Putin and Hitler, the only way out of this is to drive Russia out and give them such an awful time that they are unlikely to try again for another generation. Putin may think he will stop at nothing to win, but maybe it will take that much - ie reducing his army to nothing, but you no one should expect anything from the peace talks apart from Ukraine capitulation. So a non starter.
Putin does not want to peacefully meet a brokered deal, he wants to resurrect the USSR so unless we understand his goal, and that is to take back what he thinks is Russia's then we really can't even begin to imagine what the end looks like.

We have to do more for Ukraine not less, they need bigger and better weaponry - more than they asked for, specialist training and everything we can throw at it the war to ensure the outcome is a win for Ukraine - or we won't just have mass genocide towns across Ukraine but in all of Europe eighteen months from now.

And just to be clear the thing that angers me about this particular Kremlin mouthpiece in the Guardian is not because I don't welcome all views, of course I do, but because this war is being fought on two fronts, and one of this disinformation, Russian propaganda and fake news.

The Russians are masters of manipulation and are very experienced at twisting the facts, and are doing a great job already winning the narrative and disinformation war far better than their performance are in the battlefields and on the front line. We should not be helping and paying for them to achieve this.

We can well do without yet more disinformation supported by the Guardian, this time aiming for I assume for the Corbyn types that no doubt feel the Ukrainians could be more reasonable and moderate, and should be giving up their country for the greater good or some other BS

I don't welcome all views. The ones from former Putin helpers who grossly overestimate Russia's military capabilities either through ignorance or worse we could very well do without. The right to be a disingenuous apologist of tyrants must of course be protected in a free society, but that's all. We certainly don't have to pretend it merits welcome, or anything other than tolerance.

Id say all sides can be equally as good, with disinformation, etc, even from the days of Edward berneys and his various public relations.

A question for people more knowledgeable than me, is agreeing to peace talks another way of giving up, ? Unless your country fights until they are completely defeated ?

For those who think "peace talks" and letting Putin "save face" are the way ahead, what do you think he'll do when he's given the bit of Ukraine he insists on in any peace treaty? Do you think he will skip through the streets handing out flowers and sweeties? Or do you think he will crush all opposition, perform dreadful revenge against those who fought him, and insist all Ukrainians in the area speak Russia and submit to Russia?

Yes, it will all be lovely if we can just let Putin get what he wants so he stops. And I'm sure he won't just crack on again in a few months/years. Just like he didn't after annexing Crimea...

Yes, fortunately there aren't any other sovereign states nearby that he thinks are rightful Russian territory, and luckily we all know full well Russia will treat the occupied population beautifully in any land they occupy.

Indeed @HardyBuckette . It's jolly lucky that Putin hasn't stated that the fall of the Soviet Union was a massive tragedy, isn't it? I'm sure he will stop at a little bit of Ukraine, if only we appease him with a peace treaty.

Unfortunately this situation is now as straight forward as agreeing to peace talks. Every one wants peace talks, but Putin has already stated his intentions are to removed the democratically elected government in Ukraine and insert his own people who are pro Russian, ensure Ukraine never become members of NATO and essentially become part of Russia, those are non negotiable.

Also Putin has a history or going back and breaking his agreements historically. Peace talks require both party's to find a midway point and stick to it. So for an hypothetical situation, say you were speaking for Ukraine, and you entered peace talks with some one like Putin who cannot be trusted and takes advantage as any perceived weakens, what would you be willing to give up? Would you agree live in a country with an unelected government, who was installed because your homes were bombed, families murdered and women raped and every one including children were killed en-mass. Who takes what ever they like because they threatened to destroy you, and prevents you from ever seeking protection or help from NATO.

Even if you find an agreement in peace talks, and give up every thing above. Regimes like Putin`s do not have the same values or live in a bubble like most western people, they do not see the world as you or I, most likely he will see it as a green light and proceed to do the same with other country's that is how Russia has worked in the past, bomb them into submission. Also how does that translate to other regimes in the world it shows that the west will not intervene and are weak, so it them it becomes a legitimate way to take control and land, as there are no repercussions.

A question for people more knowledgeable than me, is agreeing to peace talks another way of giving up, ? Unless your country fights until they are completely defeated ?

I can't comment if I am more knowledgeable than the next person that is subjective, however I do know there is simply no point in holding peace talks unless both side genuinely wish to find an agreement and solution.

If we consider Ukraine has been illegally invaded, why would they give up an inch of their land to a murderous dictator if there is even a small, even tiny chance they could win the war outright?

Putin is dishonest and disingenuous player, already proved, so even if a deal was brokered do we actually believe he will abide by it? I think it would be rather naive to imagine a simple gentleman's handshake and a signature will finish this war even if Zelensky makes it out alive (poisoning being the most worrying possibility)

As unpalatable as it sounds, Putin needs his 'arse handed to him' in street speak, that is the only language he understands. Russia need to be pulverised to such a degree that it will take years to rebuild what is left the tattered and broken army - decades to recover economically and longer still for the world to trust them ever again. It is the ONLY way Europe will be safe again. The only question is can Ukraine do it with the help and support of the west?

Putin will have to deal with his battered ego at the end regardless, this was not the war he was promised. Perhaps he should book himself in for some early counselling sessions to discuss and process what humiliation feels like. I have zero time and energy for anyone that prints apologist pieces in leading newspapers hoping to chip away at UK support for Ukraine and sow discord, division and disquiet. Disappointed doesn't really cover it.

Definitely. After all, it worked in 2014.

Seriously, @Swayingpalmtrees , you do realise that the only way that Russia can get 'pulverised', is if there is a full-scale war between Nato and Russia? Is that what you think we should be getting into? Everything else will require having some sort of negotiation, however unpleasant that might sound to all involved.

We can decimate Russia's army to the degree that it would take them years to recover. Not to mention ongoing sanctions that are beginning to seriously affect its economy, which is not that strong at the best of times.

Putin's deal with his supporters in the govt and army is that he brings them strength and success. Once that stops, the deal's off, because they and the oligarchs have no personal loyalty to Putin.

Also, this war has already drawn back the curtain on Russia's capabilities. No longer is it the all-powerful war machine that people were afraid of. They're on about nukes now because they've lost most of their hard power over this.

Yup.

'We' can, but not Ukraine alone, and if 'we' get into the fight there will be a WWIII. Economically it will be tough for Russia, but again it is very far from collapsing at the moment.

We, ie the US and UK, are already in this fight. We've been preparing Ukraine for it since 2014, with hardware and military training, and we are supplying them now. More countries will now finally start supplying them as well.

And, aside from sanctions, the fact that they're happy to threaten to turn off the gas to various countries will harm them for years to come.

@LemonDrizzleSlice

Yes, hear you loud and clear. You are just restating the same points.

So what do you think would work?
What would you actually do?

Yes, one thing that Russia losing sight of sanity now has done is to provide a very strong incentive against relying on them for energy security. In the short term, this is going to be painful for those countries who previously bought Russian oil and gas. In the long term, it's going to be painful for Russia.

Note as well that many of their remaining reserves are in areas where it's more difficult to extract. They will need Western technological assistance to keep exploiting those resources, because their own isn't up to the job.

That is quite accurate and from what I can say reflects the opinion of the majority of Ukrainians.

theadultsaretalking You are beginning to sound a little like Angus himself, perhaps unintentionally one hopes.
Seriously, @Swayingpalmtrees , you do realise that the only way that Russia can get 'pulverised', is if there is a full-scale war between Nato and Russia

With respect, I think you are seriously underestimating the sheer volume of fire power and specialist training that is being pumped into Ukraine as we speak. Do you not think the Western leaders have considered all of the angles and realised that if they do not stop Putin somehow then Moldova, Georgia, possibly Poland etc will be next?
The idea is to pulverise the Russians to STOP the war, not to expand it.
Only today the US have committed another $33 BILLION dollars and when you combine the sum total with all the other countries around the world, you begin to see a picture emerging of a much more powerful Ukraine, one that can hold its own certainly against a weakening Russia - Ukraine have the army, a very very highly motivated army - they have an enormous amount of weapons arriving by the hour and global support, and they are on the right side of history. They have totally clear consciences. Ukraine is THEIR country. In fact I would go as far as to say the Ukrainians will stop at nothing to win, they have nothing further to lose. When we weigh this up, and consider Russia's fast depleting army, weapon arsenal and with no clear reasoned game plan - the first one has been aborted. It is possible to see quite easily that Russia may very well lose. Which is exactly why we see Putin again threatening nuclear war again - because that is all he has left, he knows this is going very badly and he is resorting to atrocities and desperation.

Russia have now exposed themselves not as a world class war machine, but a tattered, badly managed, terribly trained out of date rag tag army - a bunch of barbarians.

Ukraine has shown itself to be a strong, powerful nation with a real beating heart, that has captured the world's attention and heart. When this is all over they will benefit from their new world status for many generations to come.