Guardian is publishing Russian Propaganda

[Swayingpalmtrees]

AIBU to be very disappointed that the Guardian has resorted to publishing Russian propaganda. It was shocking to read, largely inaccurate and wholly from the Russian perspective. I am all for listening to all sides, but there was no effort to understand how Ukraine feels, Ukraine's objective is clearly to win the war and reclaim their nation, and blaming the western leaders for arming Ukraine and the bloodshed caused by the Russians is somewhat misleading, Ukraine have every right to defend themselves.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks

Ummmmm Condescending or what!! So point me to where i said "shorten the war by diplomacy" or even anything that could be construed as such?

Shorten the war by military means, there is no other way.

Putin has never negotiated in good faith and lies constantly, either that or has no control at all over the military.

If i had the time, i could find the posts in the early 'invasion threads where i was ridiculed for stating the talks between Ukraine and Russia were pointless and waste of time or others (around the time of Brexit & under a different name) when i referred to Russia as the USSR or the Soviets... Putin always played the Tories like a fiddle.

Once he invaded, gloves off, the time for diplomacy and compromise had vanished.

This is the source that states Russia's power

I am not trying to be condescending at all - I am referring to your last post that stated:

i want the 'west to be looking at ways to shorten the war, whilst at the same time not giving an inch of ground to Putin, thats a Ukrainian decision only

You are implying in your post that there are ways to shorten the war, there are no ways to shorten the war with the exception of Putin withdrawing his troops from what I can see which might be a touch premature at this stage. I am wondering what other options and ways you think are available to Ukraine/West *alexandra201? Genuinely I am interested why security experts haven't considered different options already...and what they might be in your view?

I would say, if there were a raft of measures available that could be taken to prevent this terrible war and save the many thousands of innocent people dying, do you not think we would have taken them by now?

for Alexandra201

"I would say, if there were a raft of measures available that could be taken to prevent this terrible war and save the many thousands of innocent people dying, do you not think we would have taken them by now ? "

that all depends on the philosophy of the individual or group and the long term strategy, and if they see the sacrifices made as worth the cost. I only say this analysis based on the warfare tactics of different leaders from history, e.g. Attila the hun, Alexander the great, Genghis Khan, Ivan the terrible, ect

Sure but do you have to add in things like "You do realise alex...." anyway, moving on!

I'm not a security expert nor am i in the Biden Government, however, the US has spent the $3billion in aid announced recently, the planed $33 billion hasn't even been voted on...(end of May) the UK is sending 13 armoured vehicles and night vision googles, some radar and some shortrange anti ship missiles.... it all seems "jam tomorrow..."

Ukraine need heavy weapons now, they aren't getting them in sufficient numbers and i would like to see the Black Sea blockade challenged... i do not see how we can let Putin shut off international waters with impunity, appreciate the Turkey angle so perhaps the USA is pushing for Turkey to change its stance but if they are, its being done in total secret!

As a former air chief of staff said yesterday "Russia is pushing very hard atm and not achieving its aims, so will be forced to pause, Ukraine can then counter and push Russia back BUT atm they do not have the weapons to do this"

Are we in danger of believing the rhetoric western leaders are telling us but not looking at the detail?

We are not privvy to what is happening in terms of supplies to Ukraine alex for security reasons we may never know what is being supplied. However, Ukraine are achieving great success due in large to the weapons and training they are receiving from the west - that and the motivation to save their country from the Kremlin.

What I would say is we can only see the Russian reaction, and Putin is furious and telling the west to stop supplying, and threatening all kinds of things - so certainly whatever we are sending is enough to make Putin feel very stressed and disturbed and concerned about any of his goals being met, for his reaction alone and nothing more I would say more than enough is being done to help Ukraine - we won't know the detail, but we can be sure it is helping them a great deal.

Look, we are now talking about Ukraine actually winning, that was not even a possibility in our earlier conversations was it alex? So we are now in a much stronger position than before.

I am hopeful now. I am hopeful for a resolution for Ukraine, I am hopeful potentially for wider stability in Europe in the medium term as a result.

hawkins There is not a reason now for Ukraine to stop or to settle for less, so I agree strategically the loss now and even in the next few years, is better than the alternative. The west are largely following the lead of Ukraine (with the exception of Germany and France whom I believe for their own interests, were encouraging Ukraine to compromise very early on - that seems to have stopped)
The whole of Europe would be safer and more secure if Russia loses entirely.

UK media in partial reporting shock.

@Swayingpalmtrees Ukraine are holding back the Russians at this moment in time and its the Ukrainians who are say they aren't getting the longer range weapons but of course it would be madness if the supply routes were made public.
Talk of Russian defeat (i.e pre 24th feb borders) is premature, if they get the weapons, then they can counter and maybe that will happen but to get back the Southern & Azov Sea ports and to then push them out of Donbass is going to be a huge task & one that require a lot more and far quicker supplies from the West... Russia being able to attack from the Black Sea (with Ukraine unable to counter this) is very problematic too.

Yes absolutely!
Russia gaining a foothold in Ukraine by acting illegally and committing terrible war crimes, would be folly and they'd be back for more.. just as they did after ceasing Crimea, though far less violence then.

Ukraine was demanding more weapons a few weeks ago, since then Zelensky seems to be thanking the west and I don't see the same demands now. In fact I think beyond his criticism of Germany it seems his requests have been met.
Maybe you are watching different sources to me, but everything I have seen indicates to me that the west are more than meeting the requests of Ukraine.

It is too early to see the endgame agreed, but there is no reason to think Ukraine won't win, they have the time, resources and the support of the world. Russia are lacking in all three, but most of all - motivation and will to succeed. We can not underestimate the will to win.

It looks to me like Ukraine is fast becoming a Vietnam for Russia.

Was either Sky or Ch4 yesterday, a spokesman for Zelenskyy said he is a: disappointed that NATO hasn't got more involved (did understand why though) and b: not enough heavy weapons.

I think there is a bit of gap between the pledge and the delivery... understandable as Europe has been cutting back defence spending and there is lag due to training... but Ukraine has not got time on its side.

Hang Alex, this is simply not true. The UK have been delivering arms since the invasion of Crimea, and training. There are plenty of arms being delivered as we speak. I listened to the same news, and what Ukraine have said is that they understand why NATO can't be involved, and were criticising mainly German inaction! Not all of the west! You also missed the part where they thanked the states. I feel like you take the information and twist it to fit in with your skewed thinking.

If anyone is running out of time here, it is most certainly Russia! No food, no supplies, fuel shortages, lack of modern weapons, medical supplies are very low or non existent, exhausted depleted soldiers, tanks stuck in the mud, and no advances anywhere of note. Ukraine on the other hand have all the time in the world, and will see this through as long as it takes.

What do you reckon will happen on the 9th? I feel sick with worry. Thanks for your previous replies OP, found them really informative

Surprised at how awfully considerate some people regarding free speech of a veiled pro Kremlin article and of giving in to Putin.

These are not usual times, this is not a conflict that can be solved easily. He has plans to rule over other countries, slaughtering his way there.

Putin is another Hitler and shame on anyone wanting to defend him with ‘free speech’ in mainstream media.

Do you actually know what propaganda is?

This is not it.

And what is written there is not far from the truth as many see it.

Those people are wrong. The article grossly overestimates Russian military abilities and so does anyone who agrees with it. I've no particular interest in whether it constitutes propaganda, but it's a disingenuous attempt to argue for ceasing to arm Ukraine without the guts to admit that's what he's actually doing.

So because i see things differently from you, i ve twisted what Zelenskyys spokes person said and i ve "skewed thinking" i know exactly what i heard and if i thought you'd take the blindest bit of notice i could link you to the limited amounts of heavy weapons Ukraine has received so far...

I try to be respectful to your views but the reality is Ukraine is taking back almost no territory & has lost significant tracts of land... they are however halting any further advances... but now need heavy weapons to succeed in pushing back Russian forces.

Cameron, May and then Johnson blocked UK arms sales to Ukraine, it was the US that sold them some equipment.... we didn't want to upset Putin who was funding the UK Govts party, only in October '21 did we enter talks into supplying missiles.

We supplied non lethal arms and training until then.

Its all public knowledge but listening to BJ its easy to think we not only rearmed Ukr but trained them too ... all by ourselves.

so basically then in your view, we are just ment to accept putin is the villian without any analysis or understanding from the russian perspectives ?

Oct 2021
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-in-talks-to-sell-missiles-in-first-arms-deal-with-ukraine-7fmdddsmk

18 November 2021
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10215039/UK-signs-deal-supply-warships-missiles-Ukraine.html

21 oct 2021
www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/europe/954524/what-do-uk-ukranian-arms-talks-reveal-resurgent-russia

reaction.life/uk-to-bolster-ukraine-defence-pact-and-unveil-arms-deal-as-us-warns-of-russian-invasion/

November 12th 2021

Not sure what they are singing but it's a catchy tune. Ukraine one of the euro vision songs.