Guardian is publishing Russian Propaganda

[Swayingpalmtrees]

AIBU to be very disappointed that the Guardian has resorted to publishing Russian propaganda. It was shocking to read, largely inaccurate and wholly from the Russian perspective. I am all for listening to all sides, but there was no effort to understand how Ukraine feels, Ukraine's objective is clearly to win the war and reclaim their nation, and blaming the western leaders for arming Ukraine and the bloodshed caused by the Russians is somewhat misleading, Ukraine have every right to defend themselves.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/27/ukraine-war-end-putin-russia-talks

murdoch Pro peace and pro talks would be the preferred route with almost any other world leader, but we are talking about Putin here. He is not big on peace or talks, he wants Ukraine and the west to capitulate to his demands. The author is not an inspiring peace broker spreading goodwill, but a mouthpiece of the Kremlin.

TheVanguardSix that piece by Seamus Milne is basically a cut-and-paste of 2014 Kremlin talking points. It's pretty much 100% bollocks. It's a far clearer example of a prominent Westerner siding with Putin than the Roxborough article. But then not a surprise from Putin's Valdai mate, and the man who would go on to push the Kremlin's line on the Skripal poisonings on poor, gormless Corbyn.

It's not Russian propaganda its an educated informed commentator giving their opinion. They just happen to disagree with you.

We did... sort of negotiate with Hitler. Appeasement.

Exactly. But we didn't once he had invaded Poland. Churchill was clear on that, and right. Because any agreement could never be trusted. Hitler didn't want peace, he wanted lebensraum and victory. And Putin is the same. We let him save face in Ukraine? Somewhere else will be next. And then Ukraine again.

And they just happen to want to appease Putin.

Do you see how it works yet?

I'm sick of people dismissing any chance of peace talks with Putin. Yes it might be futile - but it might not and unless the West is prepared to send serious forces in then they have a duty to at least attempt to set up peace talks. Anyone would think they just want a long drawn out war of attrition which we can all 'learn lessons from' in the future after 100s billions have been made by arms manufacturers.

So what happens in these peace talks? What do we give Putin? And what do we think Putin will do afterwards - just retire to his dacha?

The actual foreign correspondents at the Guardian are excellent, but the non-specialist foreign affairs commentators are generally over-confident and under-informed.

Did you see Owen Jones on the French presidential election? Embarrassing. But he's Kath Viner's golden boy or something.

I don't see why it cannot be published as an alternative viewpoint. But I am very free speech and believe in giving airtime to views I find challenging. Something people on here and Mumsnet should do well to respect with the censorship of daily mail articles and the stupid stuff Mumsnet bans as hate speech or not being supportive. Book burning does nothing to help anyone whether it is "far right" (which increasingly means anything the left don't like) both gender critical material and stuff some people consider misogyny to the far left and XR. Getting alternative viewpoint is good whether or not I think it's crap (hence why I come on here)

@LemonDrizzleSlice

Can you explain what you mean by that?

I'm not being confrontational I just genuinely do not understand what you mean by it.

Well, they do try and allow other opinions unlike some other papers that hardly need to be named.

But peace talk are futile. The Russian government has shown no interest at all in meaningful talks. They may do at some point, if they feel they have no choice but to go to the negotiating table, but they absolutely do not mean anything they say about peace talks at this stage.

It's not the West's duty to set up peace talks - that's the responsibility of the two parties to the conflict. And in any case, given that the Kremlin are trying to frame the war as a conflict with the West, there's not a chance in hell that they would accept Western-brokered talks. Unless you include Turkey in the West - they've been hosting talks and both parties have accepted that. Israel has also been suggested as a possibility.

The idea that somehow it would be ethically or strategically better to send Western (I assume NATO) forces in to Ukraine is the worst one since the call for NATO to set up a no-fly zone. On the plus side it would greatly increase the chances that the war ended quickly. On the minus side, the quick end to the war would be via nuclear holocaust. Swings and roundabouts, I guess.

'Fellow travellers' are people who consider themselves to be intelligent and espouse to a cause, such as Soviet communism. Seumas Milne, and the writer of the quoted article, would be an example of that.

Useful idiots are people who are quite stupid and don't realise they are being manipulated by that cause. Jeremy Corbyn would be an example of that.

For @CorsicaDreaming .

But the good thing is that unlike in other countries we can express opinions. You are also free to dismiss them.

They are free to publish those opinions. And we are free to point out that those opinions are pro-Kremlin, however they are dressed up.

Did you see Owen Jones on the French presidential election? Embarrassing. But he's Kath Viner's golden boy or something.

Thank god I missed that. He's one of those people you don't actually need to waste time reading - just mention the subject and you know exactly what he will have said about it.

Manipulation goes on all the way across the political spectrum. Remember Brexit and all the accusations of politicians manipulating voters and the counter accusations of people being patronising towards those who voted for Brexit? Anyone can accuse others of manipulation to suit their own agenda.

@Swayingpalmtrees - but currently the Ukrainians have absolutely no choice but to do what they are doing of fighting alone to try to save their country. It is not what they want. They have implored the West to actually come in and fight or set up a no-fly zone.

The West - totally understandably in my view - feel they cannot do that without risking a full-blown nuclear world war.

I think with an adversary like Putin it is a fairly reasonable assumption that this is what would happen.

So the only other option does seem to be to try to broker some kind of deal that allows the war to finish and Putin to save face.

And without that their country is just being utterly destroyed and people murdered on an appalling scale.

I cannot see how this article is Russian propaganda.

I was explaining two well-established phrases vis a vis Communism. 'Fellow travellers' and 'useful idiots'.

I mean, look them up! I didn't invent them.

So the only other option does seem to be to try to broker some kind of deal that allows the war to finish and Putin to save face.

Putin doesn't want peace. He wants victory. Continuing, growing victory. That is what he has been doing for the last few years.

Everything you read is propaganda (whether in war or not). Everything is written from the perspective of the person writing it.

Everything you read is propaganda (whether in war or not). Everything is written from the perspective of the person writing it.

That's not what propaganda means.

Getting alternative viewpoint is good whether or not I think it's crap (hence why I come on here)

I agree 100%. When it's Johnny Depps trial, for example, they can put forward any view they like. Even things to do with UK politics as I presume people who would read it would have some idea of what's going on in this country. But this is a foreign war which many peoole might have limited information about. We definitely need opinion pieces to challenge our views but I think in situations like this, there should be someone to give an alternative view or to challenge it so we can take away a more balanced view of different peoples thinking or at least more sides to the story.
I'd be even happy for the Russian Ambassador to print his version of what's happening and why. But there should be an alternative opinion piece for balance when a situation is as critical as this.