To basically demand super-flexible working hours

[Flatbrokefornow]

I am very privileged in that I don’t have to work to pay the bills (although only just, and not for much longer at the rate things are increasing!), but less privileged in that I’m widowed with no family close by. I’m completely on my own.

Now my DD is in secondary school, I’d like to think about going back to work, to fund a few treats and get my pension and DD’s education fund back on track, and also for my own fulfilment.

BUT, I won’t consider working school holidays. I know people do, and all power to them, but it won’t work for us, yet. (My DD has been diagnosed with anxiety, is being assessed for ADHD and has also lost her father. She’s got enough to cope with) We’ve tried holiday clubs in the past, and the effects on her anxiety are just not worth it for our family. She’s just 11, and while she (probably) won’t set fire to the house, and I’m happy to leave her for short periods occasionally, I can’t really just expect her to stay home alone all day everyday. There really isn’t anyone I can ask. Lone parenting makes forming friendships difficult, I’m an only child and my parents live abroad. I have lovely neighbours, who will do the odd favour, but that’s not exactly a solid plan going forward.

is it a non starter? I was thinking of retraining, but given the restrictions I can work, I’m not sure it’s worth bothering. Who’s going to want to employ me? Especially if any of the interview panel are blokes who never even think about childcare (and it’s common, let’s face it) and just think I’m either coddling her, or a spoilt princess that wants holidays off. I have considered working in a school, but in all honestly I don’t think I could spend all day managing children’s behaviour and then come home and manage DD (who can be very rigid and oppositional) with the level of patience I’d need and enough energy to hold boundaries with her. I don’t think that would be fair on her, or sustainable for me.

I’m currently looking at careers with flex time, working from home, or short term/part time contracts. I wouldn’t mind buying extra leave, or taking a pay cut, but my family will come first and I would leave a position which didn’t allow or follow through on me not working school holidays (in the main. The odd day will probably be doable) without hesitation. Is this even possible? How can I phrase it so that my boundaries are clear, but not sound entitled? How can I reassure an employer that I’ll do my damndest for them in my working hours, but that’s all of the time they are buying from me, and it’s not about money for me. Are my only options very casual, or leaving a job every July?

I totally sympathise OP. I am in same situation, widowed with a daughter in year 8 who is struggling with bereavement and turning into a teenager. I have no parents and family live over an hour away. I have to be self sufficient as there is no one to help. And to be frank unless you are in that position you can’t understand how hard it is. I had to leave my substantive job as a nurse because I couldn’t do the shifts etc. However I am able to do bank work and I don’t work school holidays. I won’t say I am lucky because I am not but I am fortunate that I can do this. But the work is not guaranteed and shifts can be cancelled at short notice which is hard. It is of course a 0 hours contract.
I do think you will struggle to get a job that is term time - your best bet is locum/ agency depending on your skill set. But I am also pretty sure that in a few years your daughter will be more independent and you will be able to be more flexible. Could you use the next few years to study/ retrain??

You need to find jobs to apply for that match your needs / what you can offer.

What you cannot do is apply for FT roles with five weeks holiday and 'demand' 13 weeks holiday.

Those employers won't have an opinion on your childcare needs or priorities, they will simply discard your application.

So there thoughts are quite irrelevant, unless you have very specialist skills, so are operating in a seller's market:

Especially if any of the interview panel are blokes who never even think about childcare (and it’s common, let’s face it) and just think I’m either coddling her, or a spoilt princess that wants holidays off.

How can I phrase it so that my boundaries are clear, but not sound entitled?

Job-hunting is a bit like dating - but based on skills, attitude, availability etc. It's about matching the right person with the right job. You don't look for an unsuitable person then demand that they change / accept their demands that you change. You find someone suitable first, then work through the details.

YANBU to think you can find something suitable, if you assess yourself realistically and search diligently. But YABU to imagine you don't need to do the work of assessing, searching and testing how good your perceived 'matches' are by applying, listening to feedback and honing your search and applications accordingly.

Haven't read the whole thread sorry so not sure if you are suitably qualified but there are agencies who arrange cover in schools and you can block out whenever you aren't available to work. A range of roles from TA to cover supervisor.
Cleaner or dinner lady in a school would also work.
After school or breakfast club term time only would be a few hours a day.

I know you said not working with children by the way, but these jobs are only a few hours a day, even agency work you can just do mornings or afternoons, as little or often as you like.

I work in admin in a local school. A lot of people assume all the school holidays are free for term time only staff. They're not. We do get most of the holidays off but, as someone who works 5 days a week (even though they are part time days) I have to commit to 5 days work during the holidays. Yes, that is spread over the Easter/Summer/Christmas breaks and half terms but I don't always get a say about which of those holidays I have to come in on. So I may have to do a couple of days at the end of the summer break to get our area ready for the kids return. Or I may be asked to come in for a day or two over Easter to do the same. Otherwise the days are up to me but I have to give five days during the holidays - non negotiable it's part of the contract.

Last year we were also asked if we could help out in another department in the school summer holidays as they had staff sick with Covid and work needed to get done for the new term. We could say no and we were paid for the extra hours - but that sort of thing can be common for admin staff when the school is shut. I've also been asked if I can help with a summer school activity. Again, it's extra pay and there's no forcing but, as everyone works as a team, it's sometimes hard to say no...after all it may be you needing the help next time and it takes some front to ask for it if you've never been prepared to roll up your sleeves.

You also have to balance the potential time off in the holidays against the fact that it's not easy to get time off during term time. My manager is very good but I get school holidays off so she needs to see me at some point. It's what I'm paid for and school jobs are like gold dust!

In addition we have to come in for INSET days. Again, it's non negotiable. It's part of the contract and you have to work them. Of course if you're then working and your child's school has an INSET day you have to make your own arrangements - you work in term time and that's it.

Also, don't forget that like most other jobs, admin in a school don't start and stop when the school is open to the kids. My hours are 8am to 4.15pm. Better than some but I still need to leave the house before DS and I get home after him.

So school jobs look cushy and, in some respects they are. But most school jobs aren't 9am to 3pm - far from it.

And, of course, OP you can ask employers for term time work. But you do have to understand that others needs have to be balanced too. For example, our DS has a heart condition, he has a friend who has a brain tumour and another who has severe autism. Who gets first bite of the cherry during the holidays if we all worked together. Because, as a parent, I also want to spend time with my child, whether he had a heart condition or not.

I’m guessing because the best candidates for the recruitments they’ve done have been people with kids and they can’t refuse to hire them because they have childcare commitments as that’d be discriminatory. I’m sure people without are applying but they aren’t getting the jobs, which is frustrating (for me, anyway).

I agree though that flexibility is not working where I am (or working brilliantly, depending on who you ask).

Sorry op for derailing the thread!

This. I moved from local govt to civil service in 2021. both my old and new job are now completely flexible - can work from home every day, office every day or hybrid, work your hours within whatever timescale you like, ask to do condensed hours/4 day week or 9 day fortnight, and can take leave whenever you want (and build up 2 extra days flexi leave per month if you want).
I wouldn't go in demanding those things exactly but realistically it takes months to go through the hiring process in a lot of places. If you aim to start this September you'll have a good 10 months of opportunity to show you're a good worker, so if you do need to then ask for some leniency (although obviously not as drastic as completely changing your hours) you're in a better place, plus they will probably not want to lose you and train someone else if you're halfway decent. Once you get next school holidays (2023) under your belt, your dd will be 13/14 by the following ones and you might feel happier leaving her alone for longer.

How about working bank somewhere? In a care home for example. Bank staff can pick and choose their days work. Same with agency. I think the difference is bank staff have sick and holiday cover depending on how many days they work and agency is classed as self employed so you wouldn’t get sick or holiday pay. That could be as fully flexible as you need!

I've met a few people over the years who do contract work, they tend to work FT Sept - June then have 2 months off. Obviously you've got holidays in that time too but maybe you could do a version of this, short term temp contracts? Depending on your skill set. We've hired a receptionist for 6 weeks to cover an operation and recovery time.

I know you said you didn't want to work with children but there's school jobs which are or can be TTO which don't involve much contact.

Data/business/finance/admissions/exams/invigilator/HR/Reception/Admin. Some are better paid than others. Most secondary schools will have a number of these roles. Some primary schools too, but the staff in primary tend to be much more involved with the children even on the admin side.

Plenty of my friends work term time only, but they have (re)trained in an area which allows them to work for themselves and set their own hours: yoga teacher, personal trainer, dog trainer, tree surgeon, gardener...

I wouldn’t have a problem employing someone who could only work term times. In fact I do.

m I would have a problem with employing someone who was economical with the the truth. What a shame op. So many people have spent time on both your diametrically opposed threads offering you genuine advice.

It’s very rough when it’s all you. I used to have nightmares about being in an accident and no one knowing I had a child. Obviously, she would be ok at school, but I was bloody careful what I did at the weekend!

I’d planned to retrain about now. I hadn’t planned on the anxiety making things harder. I’ve friends who just went merrily off to full time, and left their kids at home after secondary, but they were teachers, so the kids weren’t alone day in day out for the summer.

Another vote for trying Civil Service. One of the types of flexible work arrangements is :

Annualised hours
The employee has to work a certain number of hours over the year but they have some flexibility about when they work. There are sometimes ‘core hours’ which the employee regularly works each week, and they work the rest of their hours flexibly or when there’s extra demand at work.

Check this link

What about bank staff in a hospital? They do sometimes offer short term contracts that might fit around school?

www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/916715723

Dislike it all you like, you don't make the decisions and those that do have already made them, and made WFH permanent in a lot of departments, which will be hard to change given it's been specified in staff's contracts.

Not sure about passport office but DVLA are behind because they were out on strike for months, not because the staff are home working.

@Motnight That is a joke, right?

Yes it’s worth it. I don’t need to work but I have been working part time since ds was 6 years old (he’s in Uni now). I didn’t want to work evenings, weekends or holidays, and I thought that would be impossible part time, but I’ve been gainfully employed fourteen years. The jobs do exist, you just have to find them.

I don't get this...presumably if flexible working is available then you are as entitled to apply for it as anyone else. So if you want Christmas/August off, just book it in. Surely you'd be more likely to get it than a new person as you can apply for the leave you want before they've even started. If the work doesn't get done or it means someone else has to work Christmas for once then it's not your issue. If lots of people want the same time off that's for your manager to do their job and manage, not for you to make easy for them by being a martyr and then moaning about it.

I nearly always work the summer and Christmas because I don't have kids yet and prefer taking time off when it's cheaper and quieter, but if I do need time off during those dates I just book it and don't feel the slightest bit guilty.

So op are you actually going to tell us what your employment / financial / practical / skills circumstances are so people can stop wasting their time here?

If you aren't fussed about a career and it's more a job, then things such as zero hours contracts might work as you wont be completely reliant on a regular income. So supermarkets etc might be happy to have term time workers as they have students available for work during the holidays. Or you could try to get part time, particularly mornings/work from home and even in the holidays you could be all done by lunchtime when your teenager might be crawling out of bed. Or you just wait and see what she is like in a couple of years as they change very quickly and then look for full time work, you could register with a temp agency in the meantime.

I think that there are employers who offer term time etc but they can't give it to everyone and it's likely that existing staff will already have requested it. It never hurts to ask though and it's better to be upfront so they don't waste their time, it will severely limit your options though.

I work freelance, and basically work term time and school hours. My husband travels regularly and have almost 5yo twins who are a bit young for holiday clubs, so I need to be fully responsible. I work in a relatively specialised area and was fairly senior when I left full time employment.

freelance s a funny thing - it tends to be feast or famine, so not great if you are reliant on a steady income. You do tend to charge more per hour than similar salaried employment, so good if you are keen to maximise income per hour.

i do find it tricky to get contracts perfectly aligned with school hours, and during holidays (such as this Easter) I end up having to put in the occasional late night after kids in bed, or get a few hours done while they watch a movie. On balance though we had loads of quality time together and the kids were only minimally aware of my work commitments. I imagine it will be easier as they get older and are more self sufficient so that I can work the odd half day during holidays and still have loads of time to spend doing fun stuff.

So, skills. I’ve a science degree, various temp office jobs, a healthcare degree and ten years very specialist experience. I worked full time until DD went to school, because my service lead refused to allow part time, then relocated after DH died to save money. Since then I’ve worked here and there in a school, and for my step father and others as a sort of UK agent (mostly managing property) and also mind a child on a causal basis before school, but all very part time, for pin money, and never through the holidays. Which was fine at the time. Now, DD is gone by 8, and not back till nearly 4, I think she’d be ok for an hour or two after school. But not day in, day out for weeks on end in the summer. I want it to work out, but I can’t see how it would. It’s always the summer. I hate school holidays. They should all go half days all year round, take ‘em out for a week whenever you like. Life would be so much easier for working parents!

If I went back to health, I would have to spend at minimum of six months reskilling and being supervised unpaid, and then I might be able to start again as a basic grade. So I might as well try something different. It seemed a good idea to find out where the best flexible jobs are, and work towards them.

There’s been a few threads on here about people re-training in tech, as they are hurting for people. I was vaguely thinking of doing a boot camp in September, and starting a job after Christmas, but how to handle the summer is a hurdle I can’t see a way through. I don’t blame employers for wanting more than I can offer. But it doesn’t change the fact that I’m keeping the show on the road single handedly, and that needs to come first.

I genuinely don’t know if working from home would work or not. It was pretty disastrous in the pandemic, but that was a while ago in child development terms and also a generally stressful time. It’s not that she needs a lot of my time, but she needs to know I’m there, and it was really hard to concentrate with her popping up every five minutes on some trumped up excuse or other. I suppose there’s only one way to find out…..

Op, I don’t know what is your situation but if you inherited a few £100,000s after your husband passed, and that money is providing you with a considerable income in interests a month so you don’t need any financial support in the form of benefits/universal credits, please ignore my post, if not read on.

If you depend on UC or any other kind of benefit go to entitledto.co.uk and use the calculator to check how much you will get but enter the age of your DD as 19.

I think that would possibly make you realise how much you need a job, any job. I don’t know how old your teen is but at best you have 5 years to become financially independent before the 2 of you find yourselves experiencing severe financial hardship.

The kind of job you want is not a job that is available for people who have been sitting at home for so long, not having recent experience equals in many cases to have no experience at all, you may need to start from scratch. There are seasonal jobs like exam invigilators, term time school administrators, etc but a part time job or one that just requires a few hours a term is not going to pay the rent or allow you to renew your mortgage if you have one.

And also, you need to rebuild your life, working will help you make friends, give you perspective and allow your kid to become more independent. I know that a lot of people say you need to focus on your child but honestly, as a single mum with no family around and taking sole responsibility of my child 24/7 if I had focused more on him I would have asphyxiated him! or became a burden to him with so much attention and worries.

I also noticed that my son felt much better about going to university and start his own independent journey knowing that I wouldn’t be alone or lonely when he left.

Best of luck.

If I went back to health, I would have to spend at minimum of six months reskilling and being supervised unpaid, and then I might be able to start again as a basic grade.

are you sure this is the case? You’ve only been out 6 years. Can’t you do a return to practice course? I know people who have gone back after being off longer than you and they haven’t had to be supervised or return to basic grade pay.