To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

Oh god. I thought we’d dealt with the ‘lack of nuance’ stuff.

You’re making all sorts of assumptions, not least about poor old Bob in accounts. What’s to say he isn’t funding an anti FGM charity as we speak, rather than telling off feminists on the internet?

I’m off for a bike ride with my children. Enjoy your nuances.

OMG! I can't believe you typed up that racist crap!

Nah, I’m good thanks. I’ll leave your thread and posts to make their own case.

But I do love how you’ve implied that I vanished for ages, then demanded I justify opinions and views I didn’t express and don’t hold, and then in the exact same post declare you don’t have time for this.

Seeing as you mention FGM, I thought you'd appreciate information on how to help end it.

Ending female genital mutilation
Around the world today, it is estimated that 200 million women and girls alive today have already been subjected to FGM, and another 3 million girls are at risk of being subjected to it each year.

I think FGM is sometimes lightly dismissed as a one-off awful event in a survivor’s life, but in fact, the effects and complications of this human rights violation are lifelong. One year, the World Health Organisation estimated that those complications mean that FGM costs health systems $1.4 billion dollars each year.
An estimated 800 girls undergo this each day. Some of them won’t survive to have health complications.

Organisations and campaigners working to end this include:
The Orchid project: www.orchidproject.org/
www.forwarduk.org.uk/
Hibo Wardere www.youtu.be/957vtfQvuQg

If you are an American MNer, Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s foundation may be particularly of interest to you. She focuses on stopping FGM (and forced marriage which you also mention) in America.

www.theahafoundation.org/

Another charity is Nimco Ali's the Five Foundation and here is another thread of resources I made for this year's International Day of Zero Tolerance for FGM

And yet @PurgatoryOfPotholes despite all of that, nobody is doing any of that if they are white!

Utterly batshit!

But thanks for the list of resources, again!

Ending Forced Marriage

International Action
Walk Free

Girls Not Brides

Their list of individual projects to fund under the Take Action tab may be particularly of interest.
Take Action

UK Action
Karma Nirvana, a specialist organisation run by a woman with peraonal experience

USA Action
Ayaan Hirsi Ali's organisation

But am I wrong?

Taken from government statistics.

This is of the issue with much of feminism in my view. It's not just about equality. It's typically a strongly left wing ideology which won't dare to drill down into the specifics if any ethnic minorities happen to be the perpetrators. They'll happily bang on about 'men' and demand that all men feel guilty, when really almost no white UK male is marrying a fourteen year old.

You either appease the feelings of people who chop off children's genitals and try to ensure they don't feel bad (at the cost of children being mutilated) or you call it as it is and actually try and tackle the issue. In these situations it's easy to see who wants to virtue signal (hate the expression but relevant here) and who is actually prepared to get their hands dirty at the cost of receiving disapproval from some.

Interesting interpretation!

@NoooooCoooooode
Just checking in. So you don’t support gender ideology? Sorry, I thought you did. I thought you’d actually said you weren’t gender critical. I can’t keep up.

People who condemn those trying to identify the perpetrators of such grievous acts are actively working against the issue being resolved. Also, sex is a protected characteristic, not just race/ethnicity. It is an odd situation where you can call out men for their behaviour but not particular cultures.

One of the first things that made me question modern feminism was a comment on here that said 'replace "men" with any other demographic and it sounds bigoted". It's true. People were recently talking about a book called 'I Hate Men' and saying that the meaning becomes clear when you read it. However, I found myself agreeing with those that said you could never justify a book called 'I Hate Homosexuals' or 'I Hate People of Colour'.

replace "men" with any other demographic and it sounds bigoted

I did pledge not to engage with you, but… It sounds as if you don’t understand the key issue.

What other demographics are you imagining? I can’t think of another demographic that can be defined by its members violent and oppressive behaviour. There are certainly subcategories of men that commit more violence than others. But male is the unifying characteristic.

Ah ah ah!

Acknowledging the truth about male pattern violence is cruel and nasty. You know this! Stop basing your feminism in the truth?

However, I found myself agreeing with those that said you could never justify a book called 'I Hate Homosexuals' or 'I Hate People of Colour'.

What about "I Hate Straight People' or 'I Hate White People'?

I can envisage such titles being published, and I wouldn't be bothered if they were.

Indeed. The book(?) Why I Don't Discuss Racism with White People (or similar) has been suggested and is. Times bestseller.

I just did a check on Amazon, and there is a book called Why I Hate White Women. $7.99 apparently.

It appears to be a book about how white feminists portray themselves as the victims whilst themselves pushing an often racist ideology.

would my husband be able to come on this scheme if he said he was a woman

Well yes, it is an absurd idea, isn't it, that the average person might find amusing. Blame the overreach of gender identity ideology for that, not feminist MNers.

Ha! Bet you couldn’t believe your luck when you found that then!

Sounds like a book I might need to read. Notice that I’m not crying about the title though. I think it’s worth taking a hit and showing a little humility in the name of the common cause (feminism), if indeed that is what the book’s about.

Sad that @NoooooCoooooode hasn’t been back to explain whether he/she is/isn’t gender critical 😐

Dear god.

Clearly there are issues of race that need addressing (though I’ve never seen racism on FWR).

But since you’re here… can you explain, using logic, how you’re a feminist (if you are) but not critical of regressive ideas about gender?

So are you or are you not distressed by its existence then? You said, replace "men" with any other demographic and it sounds bigoted".

Do you still think that?

So are you or are you not distressed by its existence then? You said, replace "men" with any other demographic and it sounds bigoted".

Do you still think that?

This book isn't the gotcha you think it is.

Here are some former thread titles from mumsnet:

"I HATE MEN!!!!!!"
"I hate men"
"I HATE men"
"I bloody hate men"
"I'm starting to hate men"
"I've realised that I just don't like men very much..."
"AIBU to think that all men are a bit shit?"
"I hate men. sorry"

Now try an experiment. Start a thread titled "I hate gay people" or "I hate asians" and see how many minutes it lasts before being taken down.

I'm personally pretty uncomfortable with the way it's perfectly acceptable to discriminate against men. Even if they commit the majority of violent crimes, most are just normal people. Most feminists seem totally blind to this.