To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

That 7% figure (which was of all Britons, not just women) is quite out of date. More recent studies have it as about 30-40% of women; there’s certainly been a significant uptick in the last decade.

It’s rather childish, in my opinion, to throw around figures like that 7% that @TruthHertz has dug up, as a sort of ‘Ha - look, everybody hates feminists’ sort of approach. For one thing, it shows a lack of real thought. If indeed feminism means fighting for equality for women, no more, no less, then any survey that returns the evidence that women are not generally in favour of that equality is a problem. A very childish response to that problem is to take @TruthHertz ’s approach, a sort of ‘ha ha stinky women, no one supports your stupid feminism’, and fling the supposed evidence around on threads like this.

My response- and indeed the reason I started the thread - is to bemoan the fact that society, the media, men, people like @TruthHertz , that whole contingent, have done a real number on the word feminism; they’ve vilified women who want equality, made them pay for chipping away at the millennia-old male privilege. That’s what’s happened to feminism. Hell, @TruthHertz even wheeled out the nasty, misogynistic ‘angry women with a chip on their shoulder’ trope to try to discredit feminism.

You can try to pin it on women - that’s the usual trick. You can say it’s because there are disagreements within feminism (which clearly there are). But ultimately, society still has a massive problem with women, and every single step of the feminist fight has been and will be hampered by backlash. My point is that we’ve got to be strong enough, first of all, to own the word ‘feminism’. If we’re put off by misogynistic rhetoric about ‘frothing’ and ‘angry women’, then we’ve basically fallen at the first hurdle.

Men are threatened by feminism - even the good ones get a bit nervous about it. If we use our critical faculties, we can see why the word feminism has suffered; it’s because of the huge male bias that saturates our society. It’s not hard to work out where that (outdated) 7% figure came from. It takes massive effort to overcome that.

No fear of feminism here. Not in the slightest. There are definitely aspects I don't agree with and strongly dislike (anti trans and lack of black/minority female inclusion for instance) but threatened? Definitely not.

I think the percentages seem to vary between 30-60%, depending on who does the research so no surprises really as getting a truly neutral result is going to be difficult. But it does seem that things are changing, which suggests a positive swing.

@2TheLighthouse I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that there aren't any feminists with huge chips on their shoulders though. That's a completely valid criticism and a bit NAFALT to get defensive about it IMHO. Sure, it might be a small number and it's not helpful to the cause but there are always bad eggs in any movement and it's always the bad one's, which have the loudest voice. It's not unreasonable to point this out. I wouldn't get annoyed about it any more than I do when men (as a class) are criticised (despite bad men being so prevalent).

Reading here as a man is an eye opener. Just reading the perspectives of BMN'ers and trans discussion is enough to put many people off but you don't seem to recognise this and why some might choose not to identify. Things like this have nothing to do with men or society trying to pull women down but personal perspectives on how and what female equality looks like to the individual.

It depends how you define ‘chip on your shoulder’ I guess. The implication there, to me, is a sort of paranoia, as if the feelings of resentment are somehow not justified. But if you mean by ‘chip on the shoulder’ a justified anger against injustice- then sure, of course. That’s the whole point, isn’t it?

I think people need to stop saying ‘anti-trans’ too, unless they can find evidence for that. If you are a man, accusing women of being ‘anti-trans’ just because they refuse to say men are women and welcome them into women’s spaces is simply unacceptable. Talk about being disingenuous! I mean, it’s unacceptable for women to spout that ‘anti-trans’ phrase too if all they mean is ‘pro-women’s rights’, but it’s even more galling when men do it.

It’s interesting too that you think the ‘bad eggs’ in feminism have the loudest voices. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but that sounds a lot like a male view of ‘it’s fine to be a feminist if you’re nice and relatively quiet about it.’

What exactly is it that the bad feminists are doing and saying? I have listened to the objections about the marginalisation of black women in feminism, and I understand that some women feel that their main issues, as non-white women, are not the issues that are centred. I accept that. But I somehow don’t think that’s what you’re talking about. In any case, not centring is not the same as excluding.

So, I repeat, what exactly is it that the feminists are doing that is so off-putting. I’d argue that it’s rejecting patriarchal bullshit. And that seems fine to me.

it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that there aren't any feminists with huge chips on their shoulders though

😂

It’s insulting to those who consider themselves feminists too.

“I think people need to stop saying ‘anti-trans’ too, unless they can find evidence for that.”

“it’s unacceptable for women to spout that ‘anti-trans’ phrase too if all they mean is ‘pro-women’s rights’”

ah…. The penny drops.

The OP wants the wider mn populace of AIBU to get aboard the GC train of thought. Otherwise they’re feministing wrong.

I mean, can you imagine telling people who are fighting against racial inequality that they ‘have a massive chip on their shoulder’! That would be a fairly big red flag.

Are you going to engage or just make silly ‘gotcha’ noises?

We need feminism right now to fight against all the issues I mentioned in my OP. To suggest gender critical issues are some special, separate issue is very narrow-minded.

Since you’re here, though, can you explain (using logic) why women should allow men into their single-sex spaces, since you seem to imply you believe this?

Now were resorting to strawmen arguments are we OP, where did the pp affirm such a view? Surprisingly took longer than normal to get to this point but here we are again

The definition of having a chip on your shoulder is:

an angry attitude from someone who feels unfairly treated

You've made your opinions quite clear and am not suggesting that you have one but it's evident that some do. I'm no paragon of virtue but I can honestly say I don't feel any resentment being a minority in a predominantly white country, despite racism being a huge thing. Others may be different but that's the point isn't it? Sure, we can justify anger and resentment but can't deny that individuals have different ways of expressing themselves. I choose not to have a chip for my own sanity, despite supporting Stop Asian Hate, for instance. I fully accept that other Asians will do. Reading the views of various women it seems that others have different ways to combat sexism that don't involve anger and resentment. I don't see that as controversial.

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but that sounds a lot like a male view of ‘it’s fine to be a feminist if you’re nice and relatively quiet about it.’

That is the classic response but fortunately you're wrong. We're all free to voice an opinion, it's just that the most prominent ones are often those with the most extreme views. Media has a way of amplifying the worst of all things and feminism isn't immune to this. It's probably unfair but you can't deny that's what has affected the number of women identifying as feminists for all these years. Feminism has had a bad image, which is fortunately changing. Some of this is down to men but not all.

Are you able to engage in good faith?

So, here’s my side of the logic:

I’m trying to get to the bottom of why ‘MN feminism is so anti-trans that it puts people off’ I’d being bandied around.

So, I ask that question, and I get @NoooooCoooooode plopping with that comment about some secret agenda I must have, which is all about getting people on the GC train or something.

Well, the gender-critical viewpoint is advanced on the FWR boards, and it is always well argued and logical. It is not anti-trans.

With me so far?

Not believing in a mysterious inner sense of gender is obviously fine. The main (and screamingly obvious) reason that it is important for (many)feminists to reject this innate gender belief is because people are using it to encroach on women’s rights.
And women’s rights is the main topic of this thread.

So when our friend @NoooooCoooooode heavily implied he/she is against gender critical feminists, I just joined the dots. If @NoooooCoooooode could come back and clarify, it would certainly be helpful.

You call it a straw man; I call it the only possible conclusion from @NoooooCoooooode ’s post.

@Lunar27

It's probably unfair but you can't deny that's what has affected the number of women identifying as feminists for all these years. Feminism has had a bad image, which is fortunately changing. Some of this is down to men but not all.

Well, I’m not really disagreeing with you. The bad image had been generated by society - by the media amongst other things. People buy it. They are turned against feminism because mistrust of women is baked into our culture. It’s not ‘down to men’ as such - it’s down to our history and values as a society. Women perpetuate it as well as men.

But you haven’t explained the ‘bad eggs’ bit. Which loud voices have been bad? Which particular feminist causes have been shouted about and have led you, and others, to shake their heads?

The ‘chip on the shoulder’ thing is a bit misleading. You don’t choose whether or not to put a chip on your shoulder. It’s a derogatory term used against people, often people who are angry about an injustice. I am angry when I read about rape in the news. I don’t just engage with the issue on an intellectual level; I am furious. If that means I have a chip on my shoulder, so be it.

I don’t think feminism has achieved much over the years, yes we have a greater range of jobs we can do, but are we treated any better, are we safer than we were 50 yrs ago, have attitudes really changed. The government has made it easier to work with a family, we earn more and pay taxes but still can’t afford the rent or the mortgage.

We got the vote 100 yrs ago and are 50% of the population have we changed the way society behaves for the better. I would not want to be a girl these days having to cope with boyfriends whose sex education is based on internet porn, don’t pass the buck, we allowed it to happen along with drugs and all the other vices that infest society today.

@JustAnotherPoster00 Now were resorting to strawmen arguments are we OP, where did the pp affirm such a view? Surprisingly took longer than normal to get to this point but here we are again

In the various comments about agreeing with much of feminism except the 'anti trans thing'. Because 'anti trans' when stated from a GC perspective means supporting women's right and means not wanting men in women's spaces.

Your OP sets out to ask about feminism in general. There’s no mention of trans in it at all.

You clarified that you were referring to trans people with the line in the OP about feminism “bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks”

And now you’re talking about mn feminism as if it is solely represented by GC posters from the sex and gender board.

And you’re rounding on me with pejorative terms like silly, not in good faith, plopper, implying I’m a male, etc.

I said in my first post I’m a feminist who is not GC. That’s allowed, you know. You don’t need to go into fight mode when a GC feminist talks to you.

The absence of tolerance of non GC feminism on MN and in the wider feminism circles is a problem.

The denial of racism in feminism on MN and in the wider feminism circles is a problem.

People are telling you what the problems are, but you don’t like those problems and instead are turning this thread into the typical “anyone not GC thinks safeguarding women and children is not important” line.

Yep! and that's probably the most depressingthing about threads like this. OP asks the question and we get a range of reasons why women won't connect with their own rights and responsibilities.

Attitudes really have changed and many of the inroads into patriarchal norms have beed eroded in societal mores if not laws. See headlines about all sorts of things, from porn in the HoC, OnlyFans, TikTok; drugs being normalised, marijuana being acecptable despite skunk beung atrocious for mental health and on and on and on. I, as an older woman who smoked blow, had a free ranging sex life when young, must come across as a total hypocrite and PollyAnna.

are turning this thread into the typical “anyone not GC thinks safeguarding women and children is not important” line.

I am ot the OP but this always confuses me. I don't understand how any woman can not see how gender ideology is a danger to women and girls and is all pervasive, from medical health to girl guides, sport to school toilets, rape crisis centres to Top Shop changing rooms, gathering of statistics to provision of every sort of sex based provision. Gender ideology harms everyone, women, girls, men, boys in some way.

The simplistic "a man/woman is anyone who says they are" is wiping out so many important sex based initiatives. And anyone who dismisses that hasn't seen, recognised the effects at first hand.

If indeed feminism means fighting for equality for women, no more, no less, then any survey that returns the evidence that women are not generally in favour of that equality is a problem.

But your premise depends on a big 'if', and you seem to be ignoring my repeated comments that the actions of feminists often contradict the definition.

the fact that society, the media, men, people like @TruthHertz , that whole contingent, have done a real number on the word feminism; they’ve vilified women who want equality, made them pay for chipping away at the millennia-old male privilege.

I'd say feminist have done it themselves. People in general want the sexes to get on, not to drive them apart.

Cart horse, horse cart...

I don't understand how any woman can not see how gender ideology is a danger to women and girls and is all pervasive

Most people can not see why others disagree with them, conservatives cant see why socialists want to own the means of production, white woman cant understand why black women dont feel included in western feminism, we all have view points that others cant see, doesnt make the view any less wrong or right you just think it does

Nope!

When there is ample evidence, real life issues, debates in Hoc, HoL, laws being revised, legal guidance being reviewed, real people being physically hurt, then ignoring something because it is not your focus is daft.

See, in my daily life I don't give a shit about recognising the black white divide. Mostly because I work with/for a lot of women who are from various diverse ethnicities, diverse financial positions and equally diverse places of safety. So in my life, the work I do, race is not an issue that needs to be recognised, it is an ongoing, daily act of doing. That doing takes place in food banks, soup kitchen, family support, translation services, medical centre signposting, rape crisis centre and refuges., etc etc etc.

I DO that on a daily basis.

What I agitate for, what I lobby for, what I raise attention for, what I am ONLY politcically active in rather than physically active in is the danger of gender ideology.

I hope that makes some sense and explains that post you quote.

So much to unpick, and so little time.

I’m glad that @NoooooCoooooode is back. Hello! I’ve acknowledged that people who believe in gender ideology and those who don’t are equally valid people. So, can I ask you why you had a swipe at me, with your penny dropping comment, suggesting that my main agenda was about converting people to GC? My assumption that it was because you wanted male people in female spaces was pounced upon as a straw man. Was it? Can you explain?

As a pp has said, some of us see Gender Criticism as the only logical feminist position. Feminists tend to be quite keen on logic. We like to ask ‘why are things like that, why can’t we be paid equally/be equally represented in management/be astronauts? And the answer ‘just because that’s how it is, now be quiet/kind and shut up’ doesn’t cut it. Even so, as I’ve indicated, I’d rather a non-GC feminist than a non-feminist. But since you are here, could you tell us, using logic, why you’re not critical of gender ideology and the regressive stereotypes it promotes?

Someone else said this I'd say feminist have done it themselves. People in general want the sexes to get on, not to drive them apart. Wow! If we assume, optimistically, that that is true, what would that look like? Did we ‘get on’ before feminism? Men of old might say yes. Women who lived as second class citizens might have rolled their eyes a bit. We could, arguably, do a bit more old-fashioned ‘getting on’ if those pesky feminists could just pipe down and be quiet about all that FGM and child marriage, and gender pay gaps and rape and stuff. That’d be nice.

Anyway, I really don’t have time for this. I have repeated my stance enough. I haven’t rejected the valid problems that pp have pointed out in feminism (eg wrt BAME issues). But I maintain that rejecting feminism (and that includes treating the word itself with suspicion) is indefensible in our current world. If we’re looking at the big picture, women and girls are getting screwed over and it needs to stop.

I didn't really want to get sucked into a tit for tat, but I think it's difficult to read the below quotes from feminists and not get the impression at least some are a bit bonkers. I know this is the extreme end, but rad fem is still popular and I've never seen a feminist condemn them.

I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them. Robin Morgan

The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process. Linda Gordon

Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage. Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

Marriage as an institution developed from rape as a practice. Andrea Dworkin

The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist. Ti-Grace Atkinson

When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression. Sheila Jeffrys

Ninety-five percent of women’s experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive… women didn’t go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo. Jodie Foster, quoted in The New York Times Magazine

The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race. Sally Miller Gearhart, in The Future – If There Is One – Is Female

And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference. Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime

If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. Mary Daly

Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience. Catherine Comins

As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women…he can sexually molest his daughters… THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE. Marilyn French

Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release. Germaine Greer

I do want to be able to explain to a 9-year-old boy in terms he will understand why I think it’s OK for girls to wear shirts that revel in their superiority over boys. Treena Shapiro