To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

Black women don't "reject" feminism @JoyLurking9to5 how ridiculous.

We're sick of the feminist movement which only really centres white women and leaves women of colour behind.

Due to intersectionality the chances of making it to the C Suite as a black woman are pitiful and the plights of black women in the workplace such as microaggressions are pretty much always ignored by white women when we're discussing feminism.

To add there's a real complexity when it comes to feminism in the black community because essentially colonialism is what brought us a lot of gendered inequality in the first place. Look at ancient African culture, there were female deities across different tribes, there were also several monumental queens who commanded armies across west, central and southern Africa (I can't comment on Northern and Eastern Africa as I'm not familiar with their history aside from Arab colonial rule) and women were also able to own property for thousands of years.

So a lot of the time, it does feel as though the system of patriarchy is just another thing that has been put onto us alongside racism. We didn't create it, but we're suffering from it and it's now prevalent amongst our own communities.

Once feminism works for women of all backgrounds and not just middle class wealthy European women, then you'll see women from marginalized communities accept the term more openly.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist search for threads on the main boards requesting a Black Mnetter space.

I may do that. But I expect to find exactly what has been described. For any number of reasons.

It's a really toxic debate that is dividing us and I have no idea what to do about it. I listen. I step away when asked. I try to reconcile my Happy Clappy Progressive 60/70s education with modern requirements. But I can't discuss any of it because I lack knowledge of how to use a common language to ask questions, disagree, question, seek more information, and put both feet into whatever there is to stomp all over.

Like much else in today's society this is an issue that has taken a couple of steps backwards, mainly because of ingrained racism in individuals and organisations that still has not been acknowledged and so simmers underneath any legislation, changes in more public perception.

One of the absolutely worst characteristics of many human beings. Othering, denigrating whole cohorts of people and finding ways to justify it.

And yes, I am fully aware that I will have said something there that will piss someone off for reasons I haven't even begun to understand.

I'm not saying we should focus on men. It's just that plenty of women seem to think they have a monopoly on victimhood, and I think part of it is down to an extremely blinkered perspective in many cases.

How often have you read women saying it's not fair that men don't have to worry about walking home at night, for example? It's utter rubbish as men are actually 3x more likely to be attacked and hence much less safe. The fact that it's likely a man attacking them is of little relevance to the victim aside from the fact that they're more likely to be seriously injured.

There is of course value in looking at crime statistics and who perpetrates, but too often I see the male/female element used to obfuscate other classifications like victim/perpetrators and we end up with victims being held responsible in proxy for the actions of their attacker due to sharing the same sex - class culpability or whatever its called. In reality, a black male isn't responsible for the actions of a white xenophobic thug just because they are both male, for instance.

And as I said, the vast majority of women don't identify as feminists, so feminists need to stop speaking on their behalf really.

@TruthHertz
I must say I’m struggling a bit with your posts now. I’m looking at this:

It's utter rubbish as men are actually 3x more likely to be attacked and hence much less safe. The fact that it's likely a man attacking them is of little relevance to the victim aside from the fact that they're more likely to be seriously injured.

You seem to be glossing over some details here. Women are most likely to be victims of male violence when they are walking home alone. They are attacked because they are women and they are less likely than a man to be able to defend themselves. Men may be attacked in similar circumstances, but are also likely to get drawn into fights, are more likely to be able to defend themselves and are not attacked because they’re men. Are these the nuances you meant?

Violence is a male problem; I won’t be forced into saying otherwise.

Perhaps the vast majority of women would identify as feminists, openly and without apology, if they had not been conditioned into sparing male feelings as a priority.

Correction: most women are attacked either by a partner or when alone in public

I completely agree but the trans issues have made things so much worse. I've always proudly been a feminist and recently went to a IWD event which was like a real life Mumsnet chat room face to face. It wasn't meant to be, we were only promoting a training scheme FFS. So many people going on about "would my husband be able to come on this scheme if he said he was a woman" or people going on about trans people all morning. All the same time outside the room are a load of dickhead men making everyone else's lives more difficult. I'd rather stand by a transwoman than an organisation where you're free to spread hate (genuine debate is different) I provided feedback about how upsetting it was to take part in their event for that reason and completely ignored. I was gutted. Sadly it put me off the discussions that would have helped other women, which is exactly what I was there to do. Weird argument above how trans women would skew gender pay gap figures. Not sure about black women not being feminists either, theres a long history of black women feminists but sadly they're either not listened to so much by white women or feel less able to speak out because of the 'angry black woman' stereotype or other prejudice. Don't assume black women aren't feminists, or Muslim women or women with a headscarf (or all three) that's how the patriarchy gets away with it 😉

You seem to be glossing over some details here. Women are most likely to be victims of male violence when they are walking home alone.

Nope, they're most likely to be attacked at home or in familiar surroundings by somebody they know, and they're much less likely to experience stranger violence than men.

They are attacked because they are women and they are less likely than a man to be able to defend themselves. Men may be attacked in similar circumstances, but are also likely to get drawn into fights, are more likely to be able to defend themselves and are not attacked because they’re men. Are these the nuances you meant?

Don't believe this either. Men looking for a fight will usually pick one with another (weaker) man, so the victim is being targeted because they're male. Plenty of violent men still despise violence against females and this is evidenced by the fact that rapists and paedophiles usually need to be segregated in prisons. Knife crime is also rising whilst other violent crimes fall, and being strong doesn't much help you defend against being stabbed. Possibly makes it more likely the attacker with choose to use a weapon.

I think you need to back up your claims with some data as they contradict government crime statistics.

The problem is that by disagreeing with common feminist views, it often appears that you're siding with men and 'against women'. However, this absolutely isn't the case with me. I just feel that violent men are relatively rare in comparison to feminists who espouse sexist views.

Negative attitudes against men are one of the main reasons given by women who reject feminism (the majority of women) , and I like to disassociate myself from this ideology.

Did you not see my correction @TruthHertz ?

You don’t believe that women are less able to defend themselves against a man than another man is?

Your govt statistics won’t support your assertion that men pick on weaker men either.

Men fight. Lots of those statistics will be men getting into fights. Those riot vans they send out on Friday and Saturday nights- they’re for random male violence.

It is a little absurd that I’m having to point this stuff out. But it sort of proves my point. Men’s feelings are hurt by women stating the glaringly obvious about male violence. When men’s feelings are hurt, women pay the price.

However, this absolutely isn't the case with me. I just feel that violent men are relatively rare in comparison to feminists who espouse sexist views.

woah! Just seen this corker. Showing your true colours there!

I just feel that violent men are relatively rare in comparison to feminists who espouse sexist views.

And what's the comparison between men who express sexist views and feminists who espouse sexist views?

I'm a feller. Let me tell you that violent men are pretty common. Male aggression is commonplace and I reckon a majority of men have assaulted someone in their adult lives.

Sexist attitudes against men irritate me slightly, but don't frighten or threaten me in the way that male violence does.

That bit wasn't supposed to be in bold.

I'd disagree with this to an extent, based on experience. Men who are routinely violent are generally bullies. Big fist fights in town on a saturday night are definitely a thing, and may be more or less even-handed. But on the handful of times when other males have been violent towards mean, I've not been in a position to adequately defend myself, owing to size, aggression or numbers.

Look, I'm happy to agree to disagree as I don't really care whether people share my views and I'm under no illusions that I'll convince anybody to abandon their ideology.

However, speaking honestly, I think feminism tends to attract a lot of individuals with personality defects who use it to legitimise the massive chip on their shoulder. I've met a lot of inspiring women in my time and I can't think of any who regularly harp upon about how 'furious with the world' they are and how they struggle to get through each day without feeling incandescent rage. Generally speaking that's the sign of somebody with sociopathic/misanthropic tendencies.

There are indeed some truly inspiring feminists, but these are a different breed to the ones that spend their lives frothing over twitter spats. Most successful businesswomen I've met tend to be well adjusted individuals. I've also met a fair few kickass women (female Thai boxers and competitive powerlifters etc) who you wouldn't mess with, and despite some of them defo having attitude problems they weren't the type moping and feeling defeated by everyday life.

I just don't really like pointless negativity and whinging and modern feminism seems full of it.

Perhaps the vast majority of women would identify as feminists, openly and without apology, if they had not been conditioned into sparing male feelings as a priority.

Not sure if intentional but that sounds really insulting to women who actively choose not to identify.

Agree with @FiveNineFive

I am a feminist, but definitely not a gender critical feminist in the MN GC sense.

I placed a bet with myself before opening the thread that it would be max three responses before an anti trans post. In fact the very first comment got it rolling.

I just can't get wound up about the trans thing. I understand it, but still think it's something that wouldn't even cross my mind without access to the internet.

@TruthHertz

However, speaking honestly, I think feminism tends to attract a lot of individuals with personality defects who use it to legitimise the massive chip on their shoulder

Ah ok. I think I’m done here then. You think a movement designed to erase the massive, systemic and endemic inequalities faced by women is for women with ‘personality defects’? At least you’re being honest about who you are now. I thought we were having a meaningful discussion for a while there!

No, I guess you wouldn’t get the trans issue, would you? If you hate women, it’s easy to minimise issues that unashamedly undermine them.

All the best.

It’s obviously fine not to be critical of the gender ideology. You can practise whatever belief system you like. Even, gasp, MN feminists are ok with that! Many of them just, understandably, fight back when people use the trans belief system to take away existing women’s rights and/or safeguarding of children.

Out of interest, why do you appear so scathing about women who reject your belief system? I am happy to rub along with people of all religions.

To some degree I think the GC feminists on MN have slightly over egged there pudding as of late and especially since Rachel Reeves' statement this week/last week, seems to have been a lot more pushback by women such as yourself as a lot of right wing posters have been pushing the conservative line on the culture war but now with the cost of living reaching unsustainable levels the 'at least boris knows what a woman is' mantra has seemed very hollow

Lol. Odd that I'd hate women having just stated that I dislike overly negative and 'woe is me' types. The self loathing would be some serious cognitive dissonance.

You can talk all you want about the definition, some elements of which I agree with, but the fact is that feminism attracts 'angry' people, and not all of those people are angry because of things that can be blamed on men. I just think it's an attractive ideology for some people that like to froth about things.

There are some good bits to it but honestly ask yourself why only 7% of UK women identify as feminists. Even in Sweden the figure is pretty low nowadays. Feminism isn't just about equality. It's a political ideology and often encompasses 'certain' mindsets, many of which are toxic IMO.

Sorry that offends you, but if I'm honest I won't lose any sleep over it after all the patronising/passive aggressive comments I've seen from feminists.