To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

@TooBigForMyBoots

If you believe that your brand of feminism is about excluding women because of their religion, colour, voting record, differences in priorities or dismissing women and calling them names, then you shouldn't be surprised if they want nothing to do with it.

At the risk of sounding naïve, who would actively believe that? Who would actively believe that their ‘brand’ of feminism was about excluding particular women? People might be tone-deaf about certain issues- we’ve seen this on this thread, where posters have complained that some feminists are always banging on about the wrong issues. But if someone genuinely advanced the idea that feminism was about excluding certain groups of women, I wouldn’t think ‘Well, that’s it - I can’t be a feminist then.’ Quite the opposite- I’d think ‘I don’t agree with that’ and ’I don’t think that’s real feminism.’

I’m just a bit non-plussed at the idea that people would surrender a core belief system about the rights of women just because some people under that umbrella have weird/the wrong ideas about it.

I am also really intrigued by this notion that ‘MN feminism’ is so scary/wrong/toxic. I can see that it might not address the breadth of issues that it could, but is ‘MN feminism’ so wrong on the issues that it DOES address?!

They don't surrender a core belief system about the rights of women. They maintain that belief, they just don't call it feminism.

When it is boiled down to semantics and categorising women in order to create 'others' I usually end up shouting " Stop pointing out the bloody differences, we all have one thing in common, being set at disadvantage because we are female. All else adds layers of other issues but shouldn't be used to distract or divide us"

But here we are again, divided.

Agreed.

Right. Isn’t that utterly pointless though? It creates division based purely on a word. ‘A rose by any other name’ and all that…

Furthering women's rights will never be pointless. Call it radical feminism, liberal feminism, equality, socialism, respect, call it what you want as long as it helps women. As you say "a rose by any other name...".

Yes, I agree. I meant that refusing to call it feminism is pointless if that’s what it is 🤷‍♀️

I disagree with your presumption that people who aren't feminists or women who reject the term feminist don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality and that they can't see that there is still a long way to go wrt women's rights.

This with bells on. Feminism may be an umbrella term used to describe a set of beliefs, meaning that somebody holding those beliefs could inadvertently be a feminist even if not self identifying as one - this seems a common viewpoint on here. However, it is also sometimes a particular ideology and revolves around things like believing in the patriarchy which some women don't despite being involved in women's rights.

Given the varied strands and ideals I don't think it unreasonable for women like @TruthHertz to not identify but still support equal rights.

I agree with her premise that you can support equal rights but not label oneself. I'm a man who supports women's rights but am no way associating myself with feminism, in the same way that I support (some) men's rights but am no way associating myself with MRA's.

Your view may be dismissed by some, being a man, but I wholeheartedly agree.

I was probs a bit unnecessarily scathing in my earlier post, I'll admit. Likely because I anticipated a pile on as is often the case on here. But I just find that feminism is just too generic and devoid of nuance at times. It often focuses too much on statistics and generalisations, like becoming obsessed with the vast majority of CEOs being men, when really the vast majority of men aren't CEOs and becoming one is pretty much as likely as visiting the moon for most individuals - irrelevant to the life of most people.

I want to work on women's issues but I want to do it as a society, not as two divided forces. Feminism is often needlessly divisive IMO and too based in academia. It doesn't reflect the life experience most of us have. It also glosses over lots of things, one being IMO that a man's life isn't the ultimate embodiment of contentedness. I mean, just look at the men in Ukraine being forced to stay and fight a war they're unlikely to win. Feminists always point out that the war was started by men, but again that's demonstrating a lack of nuance IMO in differentiating between victims and perpetrators in favour of just male/female. There are many other distinctions than just physical sex.

I often see similar arguments from feminists around male violence. Somebody points out that men are actually the vast majority of victims of violent crime, and somebody says "oh, but it's men committing the crime". Doesn't sit right with me. You can't try and victim blame somebody suffering, for example, a racist/homophibic just because they share the same sex as their attacker. They're likely to be entirely different demographics and a skinhead thug is very unlikely to have much in common with a young gay student. Just the tip of the iceberg but a few examples.

In the post above you say MN Feminism is not like this. Wrt racism, MN feminists were very vocal in their objection to a Black Mumsnetters space. I found their lack of insight and support, gobsmacking. And then @PatricksRum was doxxed.😰

I will also say that Liberal Feminism has an actual definition and is real feminism. It does not mean dick pandering or centring mens' needs. Just as Intersectional Feminism does not mean trans rights activism or centring mens' needs.

You make some interesting points. Of course there is a need for precision and nuance - but I can’t agree with the idea that we dismiss class-based analysis, which naturally deals in statistics and percentages. To me it is a huge problem that men occupy such a wildly disproportionate number of top management positions. This is because it’s symptomatic of deeply embedded imbalances in our society. I see no reason why we can’t address these as a combined society rather than as two divided forces… no reason, that is, except the reluctance of many men to a) accept there are systemic problems and b) to do anything about an imbalance that favours them.

I think we do have to look at the broad picture, in terms of statistics, because it tells us what the state of play is. We can then home in on the details.

For example, violence is a male problem. The statistics tell us this, as does the evidence of our eyes. Yes, men are more often victims of violence- because men fight men, but we’d simply be ignoring facts if we just sort of went ‘oh, men and women are all affected by violence.’ We have to look at the source of the problem. That doesn’t help the individual male victims in real time, I know. But it does allow us to examine and work on the issue at its roots.

Of course, as you say, there will be other factors at play in the causes of violence. But it surely can’t be wrong to name the single unifying factor in the performance of violence - ie maleness? I think one of the reasons, perhaps, that feminism seems to lack nuance here is because women have become tired of being fobbed off with obfuscation and distraction in this issue and others. They want to name the glaringly obvious truth without being made to feel bad about it.

In fact, feeling bad about sticking up for women is at the root of the whole issue in this thread. The word feminist has been the casualty in this and I think it’s a huge problem.

That reply was to @TruthHertz btw

@TooBigForMyBoots

I must have missed this vocal objection to black mumsnetters having their own space (not being facetious- I have had chunks of tie away from MN so could easily have missed it). I think that’s wrong. I would disagree with any feminists that said that.

But I see much more that I do support in the FWR discussions than that I don’t. But even that isn’t really the point. I might disagree with liberal feminism or intersectional feminism on specific points. But I still have more in common with those feminists than with non - feminists. That’s my point. We need to retain the bit we do agree on (furtherance of women’s rights) became wit matters too much to be sidetracked with in-fighting and squeamishness about the term ‘feminism’ itself. At the risk of sounding a bit dramatic, the enemy (misogyny) would love us to spend all day falling out about the definition of feminism. They’d be pissing themselves laughing at us.

• because it matters too much

not

became wit… 🙄

I might disagree with liberal feminism or intersectional feminism on specific points. But I still have more in common with those feminists than with non - feminists.

I agree with you there @2TheLighthouse.🙂 As for the squeamishness around the word 'Feminism', I get it now. I haven't always, but I've learnt well from others.

I have -been- volunteered, participated in and lead women's groups. Had they called themselves 'feminist', initial uptake would have been a fraction of the attendance and at least 1 well meaning (or not) bloke would have turned up. And that's where they would have happened at all. Early on I was taught to look for the participants who were planted to keep an eye on what women said or asked and reported back to who ever.

I am a proud feminist, but my passion isn't feminism, it's women's rights. All women's rights.

@2TheLighthouse

But doesn't it go both ways? I personally think it's sad that feminism has a largely negative tag but it is where it is due to reasons I don't fully understand. What I do know is that research has shown that although only ~20% of women identify as being feminist, ~80% believe in equality and that we're not there yet.

I appreciate you'd rather it was the other way round but this is positive isn't it? So far from your assertion that women are happy with the status quo, most women aren't.

I personally think the challenge isn't so much with other women as most appear to be roses, but with men (sorry for stating the obvious!).

Oh my word!

I was probs a bit unnecessarily scathing in my earlier post, I'll admit. Likely because I anticipated a pile on as is often the case on here.

Your pile on is probabley a lot of women explaining things!

But I just find that feminism is just too generic and devoid of nuance at times. It often focuses too much on statistics and generalisations, like becoming obsessed with the vast majority of CEOs being men, when really the vast majority of men aren't CEOs and becoming one is pretty much as likely as visiting the moon for most individuals - irrelevant to the life of most people.

That misses the point so widely it is hard to read without thinking WTAF! Being obsessed with the facts of male centred policies isn't irrelevant to the women who encounter the various glass ceilings. "Not all men" Really?

I want to work on women's issues but I want to do it as a society, not as two divided forces.

Then maybe start by not stating that facts and figures don't matter.

Feminism is often needlessly divisive IMO and too based in academia. It doesn't reflect the life experience most of us have. It also glosses over lots of things, one being IMO that a man's life isn't the ultimate embodiment of contentedness. I mean, just look at the men in Ukraine being forced to stay and fight a war they're unlikely to win. Feminists always point out that the war was started by men, but again that's demonstrating a lack of nuance IMO in differentiating between victims and perpetrators in favour of just male/female. There are many other distinctions than just physical sex.

Nuance? I am not entirely certain what to say to this bit. It's like saying that because men get hurt we can't say that women do too, or, as women, we cannot focus on the additional inequities war causes to women without having to also work at the issues men experience.

It's just another way of saying that women, feminist or not, cannot focus on women because it is unfair to men! It also makes the usual assumption that because women, feminist or not, focus on female issues they must be uncaring about the very real issues men face. When actually most of us are perfectly capable of thinking about, working on many issues at the same time.

I often see similar arguments from feminists around male violence. Somebody points out that men are actually the vast majority of victims of violent crime, and somebody says "oh, but it's men committing the crime". Doesn't sit right with me.

Why not? No matter who the victim males are, by far, the most violent cohort of people.

You can't try and victim blame somebody suffering, for example, a racist/homophibic just because they share the same sex as their attacker. They're likely to be entirely different demographics and a skinhead thug is very unlikely to have much in common with a young gay student. Just the tip of the iceberg but a few examples.

What now? What does that actually mean? Person A is not Person B? Victim blaming? That makes no sense.

I have no doubt you will dismiss much of that as one of those feminist pile ons, but your whole post made me feel patronised back into at least the 1970s!

@TooBigForMyBoots could you expand on that please? I have hidden the BlackMN forum as it has been explained that it is specifically for black women to discuss their issues. I used to read threads that came up in Trending but found it difficult not to intrude and ask questions. But could I ask here?

In the post above you say MN Feminism is not like this. Wrt racism, MN feminists were very vocal in their objection to a Black Mumsnetters space. I found their lack of insight and support, gobsmacking. And then @PatricksRum was doxxed.😰

I had no idea anyone had objected, let alone anyone in FWR being very vocal about it. I do remember a discussion about it, would it be dividing female voices? And I can see from later threads in FWR that that question itself was much of the issue. BUT a poster being doxxed???? WTF happened there?

your whole post made me feel patronised back into at least the 1970s!

Applause for your patience in responding, Curious.

I personally think it's sad that feminism has a largely negative tag but it is where it is due to reasons I don’t fully understand

Agree that it’s sad. I think the reasons you allude to are the inevitable backlash to any advancement of women’s rights. It’s an insidious sullying of the word that happens due to our patriarchal culture.

I also agree that women are not the problem! It’s the forces that have put women in this position that are the root cause.

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist
Thank you for doing a lot of the heavy lifting here!!

Would be really nice to get some kind of response... I can wait, am waiting, wondering...

Im sure most BAME MNers are sick and tired of explaining it and even when they do youll have an influx of people gaslighting and minimising, I dont know enough and I certainly wouldnt want to speak over BMNers to give much input on this, although youll find on some sections of MN that using the karen trope is worse than using the N word and the repurposed use of woke to signify anything remotely left wing or supportive of trans rights is very very prevalent and the faux innocent 'was this racist?' threads, I hope I havent mis characterised any of the issues BMNers have on here, out in the real world I have absolutely no idea how BAME cope with the hostility and the struggle they have

Oh good God! No!

The waiting comment was NOT intended to be applied to my post about BAME MNers. Though tnak you for the explanation. As I said, I tend to steer clear, as that is what has been requested, so was unaware of much of the detail!

No, my "waiting...." comment was intended for @TruthHertz and the sour whiff of mansplaining!

As I had assumed that was the post @2TheLighthouse was referring to. It makes no sense to refer to it as 'heavy lifting' otherwise.

Yes @SamphirethePogoingStickerist I was indeed referring to your longer post as the ‘heavy lifting’. I didn’t think you were ‘waiting for a response’ on the BAME post.