To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

Sex workers, or the rights of men to rape women and girls for money?

Sex workers. As I said.

Implying that feminists who take issue with prostitution don't support sex workers, presumably, otherwise what is your point? Everyone supports sex workers, everyone wants them to be genuinely empowered, liberated and free.

Some people think they can achieve that through sex work, some people think that sex work is the opposite of empowering, liberating and freeing.

Not to nitpick, but most naive people are by definition unaware of their naivety.

I didn't imply anything about anyone. But there seem to be loads of implications made about people who aren't MN FWR feminists.

Hmm. You mean, about those who support 'sex work'? There are a wide variety of different views on the MN boards, from what I've seen.

No one here has said they support "sex work". Not me, not anyone so I don't know what point you're making.

Well, likewise, tbh!

...what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

Most people see it. They just don't see Feminism providing the solution.

Most people see it. They just don't see Feminism providing the solution.

I think this succinct statement pretty much cuts to the chase of how I often feel about feminism.

I guess an analogy would be the fact that supporting men's rights is different from being an MRA. Likewise, women who support women's rights are often quite different from those who strongly identify as feminists. Truth be told, I often find the latter to be individuals with a chip on their shoulder. The type who are attracted to victim narratives. I've read all the explanations and endless paragraphs of text and it nevet really changes how I feel tbh.

I think the recent posts by @TooBigForMyBoots and @TruthHertz have illustrated quite nicely why I felt the need to start the thread in the first place.

Feminism means believing in equality for females. That’s it. Find various ways to object to that if you like, by blaming it on MN, or on women not being or saying exactly what you to them to be or say, or on there being dissent within feminism.

The bottom line is, the more women take issue with the word feminism, the more men will feel justified in deriding it too. And that’s just cutting off your nose to spite your face, in my view.

Totally with you OP. 100%

And this post illustrates quite nicely what I was talking about.

It's always word salad about 'what feminism means' but actions ultimately speak louder than words, and you only have to enter any thread remotely related to men before you start seeing some pretty nasty attitudes. It's not about telling women to 'be nice'. It's just tiring that everything is always myopically focused on men vs women. Ironically, most feminists seem to be white and middle class/well educated (one might say privileged) and the movement as a whole seems very detached from and often rejected by WOC. You only have to look on black mumsnetters to see this. Oh, and they really hate women who dare question the ideology.

I just feel like reality is often overlooked with a sort of selective bias. For example, all the MC class women who happily stay part time after having kids and enjoy a life of relative comfort facilitated by their husband working long hours. They're always painted as being in 'the maternity trap' and there is much handwringing about how to maintain their career, yet many I've encountered don't actually seem too bothered. They'd probably never admit it, but once they're relatively financially comfortable and have a decade of boring corporate work behind them many seem all too happy to make the 'sacrifice' of giving up full time work.

Yes, there is of course a risk involved in terms of losing one's independence etc but the same can be said of most things which offer high risk/reward factors like changing careers or starting a business with the associated debt etc.

And don't get me started on 'we won women the vote'. No you didn't. Just like my partner never fought in the trenches and beat the nazis. The feminists of old weren't interested in microaggressions, manspreading, and twitter nonsense. The suffragettes at least had the balls to go the full ISIS/IRA route and plant ieds in public places (most of which were too poorly made to explode thankfully) and also blinding innocent royal mail workers with their letter bombs. Of course this is rarely mentioned either.

I'm all for supporting individual causes but I honestly don't like what much of 'feminism' has come to stand for and statistically most women don't when you look at the studies/surveys of which there are many. Even in places like Sweden it's not popular anymore.

Feminism means believing in equality for females. That’s it. Find various ways to object to that if you like, by blaming it on MN, or on women not being or saying exactly what you to them to be or say, or on there being dissent within feminism.

I know what feminism means @2TheLighthouse. I've been a feminist for a very long time.

Right. So I don’t get quite where we disagree then? You agree that there are loads of remaining problems with inequality. You are a feminist. But you don’t see feminism (which we’ve agreed is about trying to fix inequality) as the way to do this? #confused

YANBU.

I worry about the lurch to the right. Depressing threads here where people like fucking Posie Parker does yet another interview with a right wing extremist who is anti-women's rights, yet when you point out that the people she's effectively endorsing are anti-woman her fan club show up to tell you how wonderful she is and how the trans issue trumps everything else. No analysis or even any recognition that analysis is a good (and feminist!) thing to do!

Don't get me wrong, I understand how important it is to win the battle on women's rights vs gender ideology demands, and I've sent pretty all my spare time fighting this battle over the last 5 years, but we lose if we give power to people who embrace a right wing, conservative, 1950s view of what a woman is.

@TruthHertz

It’s always word salad about 'what feminism means'

I really don’t think saying that feminism is about fighting for equality is any sort of ‘word salad’. It’s pretty clear - and I even gave some very specific examples of what I meant in my OP.

I honestly don't like what much of 'feminism' has come to stand for

But you have picked some random issues about specific groups of women (white middle class women mainly, whom you seem to hate) and argued against those. There must presumably be other instances where you do believe women are disadvantaged? What about those? What about the specific ones I mentioned in the OP, rather than your slightly straw-man ones? All discrimination against women is relevant to feminism. I can’t see how you can dismiss feminism as a concept unless you think equality has been won 🤷‍♀️

Feminism isn’t a club, or a website or a political party. It is a huge concept. You will disagree with some feminists about certain issues, of course. But rubbishing feminism plays straight into the hands of misogynistic men, and I can guarantee that they don’t have your back.

I must admit that your issue seems, from your post, to be that you really don’t like women very much (notwithstanding that you may well be one).

Feminism isn’t a club, or a website or a political party. It is a huge concept. You will disagree with some feminists about certain issues, of course. But rubbishing feminism plays straight into the hands of misogynistic men, and I can guarantee that they don’t have your back.

It seems to me that if feminism is a huge concept, where sub groups disagree, then it's far from simple. The concept that women are equal is very simple. The details are far from it, otherwise there'd be greater alignment.

Given the varied strands and ideals I don't think it unreasonable for women like @TruthHertz to not identify but still support equal rights.

I agree with her premise that you can support equal rights but not label oneself. I'm a man who supports women's rights but am no way associating myself with feminism, in the same way that I support (some) men's rights but am no way associating myself with MRA's.

You agree that there are loads of remaining problems with inequality. You are a feminist. But you don’t see feminism (which we’ve agreed is about trying to fix inequality) as the way to do this? #confused

I disagree with your presumption that people who aren't feminists or women who reject the term feminist don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality and that they can't see that there is still a long way to go wrt women's rights.

@Lunar27 and @TooBigForMyBoots

But what I’m saying is feminism is synonymous with wanting equal rights so saying you support equal rights for women but are not a feminist makes no sense. Feminism is wanting and striving for equal rights.

@2TheLighthouse

I appreciate that but conversely that's like saying I'm an MRA for supporting (some) men's rights issues. That's just not the case. It's also true that many feminists don't accept that men can be. Therefore, it's entirely possible to want equal rights but not be a feminist. Unless you're suggesting one rule for men and another for women?

It's synonymous to YOU. But reading this thread, it's not to all women. My feeling is that you're confusing women who don't identify, as being happy with the status quo. I don't think that's true either.

But what I’m saying is feminism is synonymous with wanting equal rights so saying you support equal rights for women but are not a feminist makes no sense.

It may make no sense to you, but if you listen to women it makes sense to them: they strive for equality but do not see themselves as feminist. So YANBU to feel despondent about feminism, it should be the natural home for people who want equality of sexes, but it isn't.

Yes, it really frustrates me that people see feminism as a negative thing. OR are scared to call themselves feminists. It's been done on purpose, obviously.

Ok. I do see your point, but I also think the bit about MRAs is slightly different- a men’s rights activist suggests specific action rather than general belief.

But as you say @TooBigForMyBoots , feminism should be the natural home for people wanting equal rights for women. It’s problematic if it’s not.

My view is that if we forsake the word ‘feminism’ because somehow it’s been tainted, the forces that managed to taint it will do the same with the next word, and the next. In short, women advocating for their rights will always face a backlash, and that will include the subversion of our words.

I get that some of you are saying that they dissociate from feminism because they don’t agree with certain tenets or people. I still find that hard to accept. I can understand that some women are saying feminists are focusing on the wrong issues or ignoring the most important issues - but if I felt like that, it wouldn’t mean I rejected feminism wholesale; that would be, to me, like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

As I say, I can understand if someone’s personal approach to women’s rights is different to someone else’s, and how someone might even be really frustrated with the approach one feminist is taking. But that still wouldn’t lead me to reject feminism itself.

One example is the frustration people have mentioned over the way Posie Parker engages with right-wing commentators. Not going to wade into the details of that, but my point is that whether or not I agree with all her methods, I agree with her main point - that men shouldn’t shit all over women’s rights. So I’m not going to reject feminism because another feminist does things differently.

I feel that people are very quick to disown the term ‘feminism’ because of their fear of men’s opinions. That’s the bottom line. Our patriarchal society has undermined the term so successfully that women are scared of putting their name to it.

If you really believe something, you stand by it. There are massive disagreements within, say, Islam, to take a huge belief system. Many Muslims have been and continue to be horrified by the way others interpret their shared religion. But they don’t disown the term Muslim; they try to do right by it because they believe in it.

I think if you really believe in striving for equality for women, you don’t get squeamish about the word ‘feminism’.

I think if you really believe in striving for equality for women then, as a feminist, that's good enough for me. If you believe that your brand of feminism is about excluding women because of their religion, colour, voting record, differences in priorities or dismissing women and calling them names, then you shouldn't be surprised if they want nothing to do with it.

I was extremely fortunate to grow up in a family of active feminists and so am proud to be a feminist. If my first experience of feminism had been MN Feminism then I would feel very differently. Feminism exists for women, women do not exist for feminism.