To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

You can try to exclude the transgender issue, but the fact remains that if any man can be a woman if he wants, employers and public services can abandon all sex based rights for women. It would be much more convenient to employ a "woman" who will never need maternity leave, for example. If your board members can be a 50/50 mix of men and transwomen, how will that affect the biological women in the company? Not allowed to mention it because it is "the trans issue"?
We already have men accessing domestic violence refuges and rape crisis centres. We know that this has a detrimental effect on women. Is that not allowed to be discussed because it is "the trans issue"?
How do we collect statistics around anything that is relevant to sex if sex doesn't mean anything any more? When rapists are being referred to as "she and her" and their crimes are recorded by the police as being committed by women. Not allowed to address this because it is "the trans issue"?
It is going to be difficult to talk about anything that disadvantages women.

Single sex bays in the NHS is actually a topic we discuss extensively on FWR. I agree about the underfunding/staffing and supervision - although the recent case where a woman who was raped was gaslit by the NHS for a FULL YEAR before they admitted there was a man on the ward suggests that there are further issues regarding transparency and accountability, which are blurred by some of the 'gender' policies, resulting in further shit treatment of female patients.

On a personal level I think it is sad that long-standing feminist activists are unwelcome on the feminist board and get called names if they disagree with the dominant narrative.

Oh god, @lameasahorse i hear you. I remember about 25 years ago i got a new, young (19 i think) female colleague who after a week or two confidently declared to me that equal rights in the workplace had been achieved and what was i worried about. (I had 2 small kids and was in that permanent state of panic about working as though i had no children and parenting as if i didn't have a job outside the home)

FF 10 years. She got married. Built a house. Got pregnant. Whined that the company said she couldn't come back part time. I could see by then a fair few other of the younger women were about to start families so i fought HR tooth and nail to not reject such applications out of hand. For them to offer flexibility around part-time hours, job sharing. All the good things that companies can do. To their credit, they implemented most of them.

And she came back part-time and found it necessary to moan about how "well, Bref, you go out in the evenings it's ok for you, you don't have to worry about child care, housework or doing the shopping."

So yeah. I just carry on feministing away in the background (sometimes) in the foreground (sometimes) and doing my best to support other women in their choices. (I spent a day at Greenham - that was one of the most amazing things I've ever done)

So talk of single issue things (transwomen, GRCs) is good and right for some people. And more power to them to get the policies they want. But if throwing all other women under the bus is the price? I think that is way too high.

Looking at the UK i think a lot of women feel politically homeless though. It makes me feel very despondent.

@lameasahorse , come to think about it, I saw it and disagreed profusely. I outlined my thinking above.

I don’t think there is that much of a “gender critical movement” if we with that assume that everyone who is gender critical needs to have the same beliefs.

I think there is (in the U.K.) a core of left wing, grass root women, many lesbians who have seen this for quite a while. As GC issues have gained more attention (WiSpa, prison rapes by transgender women, gender ideology in schools), a wider group of women (and men) have started to pay attention. Some of them are quite far from each other politically and ideologically.

Given the anonymous nature of the FWR and the frequent name changes, it is sometimes hard for new posters to know if an outrageous post is a troll there for the screen shots, someone right wing new to the debate or a regular poster. I try to call out the worst, as do many others, but often statements that not are directly offensive are left unchallenged and merely ignored.

Well, please feel free to expound. I don't understand the differences between wards and bays, no.

Ok. So start a thread about it. Seriously. You want to shape what is discussed on MN, start a thread. If you don't think that we have gone far enough to get this discussion on the table, start a thread. We can all get MP's, committees and Baronesses focused on the expanded issue.

For what it is worth, that also sounds like a degradation in safeguarding and adequate supervision too. So, we will all be with you arguing to get the focus expanded.

But if throwing all other women under the bus is the price? I think that is way too high.

Yes, this is how I feel when people expect me to ignore the prison issue.

Incarcerated women are women.

What i do think needs to be a priority is sensible and comprehensive discussion about when and how transmen and transwomen obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, and when and how transmen and transwomen can say "from now i am the other gender" and what the next steps should be.

And Gender Critical Feminists have been asking for this discussion for years and been met with No Debate, followed up with rape, death and vile violent sexual threats, harassment campaigns, reports to their employers, doxing, threats against their children and on and on and on. Ffs the EHRC made a statement regarding single sex spaces and services confirming what the actual law around those were and Stonewall and cronies reported them to the UN demanding that they be relieved of their position as the EHRC for the UK. How in the name of all that is Holy is any reasonable, sensible, comprehensive discussion to be had when the aims of those pushing reforms to the GRA/GRC want totalitarian acceptance of their demands and will brook no opposition to that?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes
And i thought your question was condescending, patronising, and indicative of a mindset that could not comprehend that this was an issue that could affect anyone you ever actually talked to.

well, i prefer to assume that people who are writing here are asking questions. I did touch on about a billion other subjects up there. And i did ask why it would be someone's number one, single and only issue when they go to the polling station. And beyond knowing your mum was in prison, i still don't know why you apparently have this single burning issue?

You did touch on the number of women in prisons, which is a different topic and something I've been discussing on and off for about the past 30 years since that woman went to prison for not paying library fines, if not longer. And i agree that the number of women in prison, and the crimes for which they are sent to prison, is a massive problem. It is not one that will be helped by voting for apparently the only party that has a leader who made a half-hearted attempt to say that women's sport should be single sex. Or do you think that under the tories fewer women will go to prison?

I'd probably go even further on the women in prison issue (any of our black friends still here? i think the issue is more widespread among women of colour IIRC) So which of our political leaders/parties/representatives has committed to looking into this? Fewer women in prison means fewer chances for opportunistic rapists to suddenly start calling themselves Susan and getting moved to a place with more potential victims.

I really think that being a woman is the single biggest issue in my life because literally everything (moving my pension age backwards, gender pay gap, sex discrimination at work, catcalling and other public abuse etc etc) follows on from that. Everything.

I really think that being a woman is the single biggest issue in my life because literally everything (moving my pension age backwards, gender pay gap, sex discrimination at work, catcalling and other public abuse etc etc) follows on from that. Everything.

And this is why feminists are so focussed on the 'gender' issue. Because if we lose the ability to differentiate between males and females, we are unable to recognise discrimination, pay gap, sexism, etc.

Sex has a huge impact on women's lives, absolutely. The conflation of 'sex' with 'gender' threatens to erase all the rights and protections women have fought for for so long. Equity only works when we acknoweldge the different ways that women are disadvantaged - most often by their biological sex or the consequences/effects that sex has on their lives.

Who has attacked you here? People have disagreed and asked questions.

I dont really recognise most of whst you are talking about tbh
Savile was a criminal whose actions were so perverse and so prolific he was virtually a one off, ando feel 'isms' are not about one rogue individual but a societal norm
Dont understand about the policing of womens clothing being contrasted to men being topless. I mean women have secondary sexual organson their chest-men dont.
Many women are turned on by rough sex ( and there are evolutionary reasons for yhis )and spanking is pretty much mainstream.
Ptetty much all actors and actresses seem ti be goodlooking

And if you approached with the same censuring tone that you have posted with recently, then yes, you would be viewed with askance.

There seems a lack of ability to see wider context. Yes no one wants a man in a refuge, but if we have a government that thinks DV is unimportant, we won't have any bloody refuges to worry about.

Maybe we need our own Ancient Feminist thread to talk about some of the things we've been through and done and the changes that we see around these days. A sort of celebration of feminist achievements discussion

It is such a huge subject, and it is natural and good that different people focus on different aspects - if we all tried to cover every thing all the time we'd spread ourselves too thin and nothing would be achieved.

Women in prisons is a really good example of something that really needs to be addressed very urgently. But where do you start? well maybe those with relatives in prison would focus on conditions in prisons and transwomen, for example. While others would focus on policing, the judiciary, the reasons that particular groups are treated so harshly compared to others. I think a lot of shoplifters are jailed? Why are they shoplifting? if they can't afford the necessaries, who is putting pressure on the relevant places to make sure women have access to the help and support they need and/or entitled to. Suddenly the issue of women in prisons has expanded and is even bigger than it seems. It is right that we address this.

Other women have other issues. I have a friend who managed, with her mother and sisters, to escape from Bosnia at a very difficult point in the war. Her mother and one of her sisters were raped by soldiers and when they got to a safe place needed a lot more than just new clothes, food and a bed. (their trauma is nearly 30 years old and it is still there). So how war affects women and children in very ugly and specific ways is something my friend focuses on to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. I'm sure there are some things that i barely even register, but are a huge issue to other people.So it is as well that other people are looking in to that.

and so on and so on.

Of course, any anti-feminists looks at the in-fighting and rubs their hands, because it consumes so much of our energy. So i prefer to ask questions, get informed and concentrate on the things that i think we can change, or need to be changed or need awareness to be spread. I don't feel despondent about feminism, i feel despondent that we seem to be pulling in so many different directions.

If you do, I would like to join. :-)

Do you or don't you think grooming kids in theatres by getting naked in front of them and asking them to draw pictures of masturbating animals is a fuss about nothing?

If you think it is a fuss about nothing and i disagree with you, are you taking the disagreement as a personal insult? Shouldn't you be arguing back that getting naked in front of kids aged 5 and up isn't grooming? In which case I'll continue to disagree. Whether you find it insulting or not.

I might take the plunge and start one on the FWR board

it's in Feminism Chat :)

"All because I do not think working with the extreme right-wing is good for women and girls."

And I know of very few 'right-wing' people, let alone feminists on the FWR board. However, there are plenty of posters who try to use that 'extreme right-wing' to admonish and demonise women who disagree with them.

Can you tell us again what you see as 'extreme right-wing' that posters on that board would be posting in support of? Apart from the occasions when people with that political belief hold a similar opinion to others but not necessarily from the same motivation, that is.

*the extreme right-wing *

Who is working with the extreme right-wing, please?