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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 12:43

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Helleofabore · 21/04/2022 12:49

Just an update on the Family Sex Show thread. One of the OPs have just posted that a social worker from CEOP has had several complaints about the show and has informed the OP to contact the police as they believe it is, indeed, a matter to be concerned about.

So much for a "lot of fuss about nothing" ....

phoenixrosehere · 21/04/2022 12:54

Brefugee · 21/04/2022 12:02

I'm bored so i just (mostly skim) read the thread. Blimey.
This one stood out
I don't call myself a feminist. I do care about women and children's rights. But feminism fucked me over big time. The idea that women can 'have it all' - no we can't. The idea that having casual sex is empowering - no it isn't. The idea that men hate us - no they don't (most of them don't). I was brought up with feminism and it twisted me away from my own wants and needs and created a very unrealistic, damaging and paranoid world view.

The idea that women can have everything wasn't supposed to mean that they can have everything all at once, and people who took it to mean that - how can i put this kindly - need(ed) to work on their critical thinking skills.

The point of feminism is equality between the sexes. We have made great strides in some respects (the vote, allowed to open a bank account all by ourselves etc) and nominally even equal pay for equal work. (there are billions of caveats to that, some structural some personal choice - but even if only nominally, it is actually enshrined in law in many countries)

So Feminism on its own didn't fuck anyone over. People had misunderstood, people made different choices and so on, but the idea that people should not have less or fewer rights because of their sex is feminism.

I am, like Bruce Banner, angry all the time. I can be angry about lots of things all at the same time, or a particular issue at a particular moment or something might make me more or less angry depending on my mood, where i am, etc etc.

Let's take "lots of casual sex". Well, yes, it's not for everyone. But the idea that boys/men get to sow their oats while woman remain pristine virgins until marriage is such clear sexist bollocks it is no wonder that a lot of people jumped into lots of casual sex without really understanding what it might mean to them. I daresay better and more good quality sex education would have helped an awful lot. I used to have loads of casual sex, some in hindsight a bit dodgy (now i understand how consent, coercion and drunk people might intersect, but hey, hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm fine so no harm done. Other people have different experiences).

The idea that FemaleBref would be criticised so much more than MaleBref for exactly the same actions is anti-feminist. (notwithstanding the consequences of sex can be very different for men and women). Relaxing abortion laws is a natural consequence of all the extra sex women were/are having. That is a feminist issue. Safe, legal, rare, as early as possible and as late as necessary. No judgement from anyone at all is required, and nobody should be compelled to have an abortion/baby against their informed will.

The pay gap. Oh god the pay gap. There are different ways of measuring it. If we go for lifetime earnings, we see that maternity leave in particular, but also part time working and having less well-paid lower-status jobs often falls to mothers / women with caring responsibilities. Women who don't take career breaks for caring responsibilities also face the discrimination as if they might disappear at any time to do this. That is also anti-feminist. What we should be doing is making the decisions easier to make. For eg: encouraging companies to have good maternity/parental policies that make it easier for men to take time out too. Society (in the form of laws and other encouragements) needs to reform itself so that it doesn't regard children as a woman's responsibility (dads "babysitting" etc).

When women say "i was a feminist but when i became a SAHM the feminists turned on me" - firstly, the choice to be a SAHM is up to the individual and their family and it is un-feminist to criticise that. But often what happens is (as we see on these boards time and time again) it descends into an us and them. Whereas what we need to do is uplift other women and respect their choices (even while we might point out that being a SAHM brings uncertainties and they might want to think about an allowance, pension funding, division of housework etc) We might point out that working outside the home might cause us anguish about missing our children, not being a good mother etc. We should be helping by sharing strategies and tips and not just "yeah, why did you have them then?". Not to mention women who choose not to have children, choose to have many children, have children with different fathers - they may be making "choices" (not always voluntary) that we wouldn't, but it is un-feminist to criticise them out of hand. etc etc etc

Black women, Asian women, women who aren't white (middle-class) experience their lives differently. (I'm not an expert, I'm trying to learn so apols in advance if this is either patronising or insulting. It's not my intention). So when black women say "fuck off White Feminist" we should be listening and learning and not talking over them. Same for disabled women, all women whose lives and experiences are different to and from ours.

Holding men to account for gender violence is not hating men. Holding people to account for unsafe sex practices is not kink shaming. Also, the sexual revolution isn't about only having lots of casual sex. It can be about exploring your own kinks etc. Kink shaming has no place in this.

Since every post must mention transwomen (and maybe also transmen) it isn't transwomen that worry me. It is men who see an opportunity to commit acts against women (upskirting, filming, and more) who might simply be allowed to say "you can't ask me if I'm a man" who worry me. They are not trans. They are abusers who may take advantage of a system of identification that has what appears to be no checks or balances. And i am worried that women who may not be around natal men who are not relatives may have their lives curtailed bothers me a lot. But i don't know the answer here outside of 3rd spaces (which i think transwomen don't want and while i understand why it is very difficult to accept for this reason)

Sorry, too long. TL;dr - people need to think more about what feminism actually is.

Not too long whatsoever and an absolute brilliant post. One of the best I’ve read on this whole thread

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/04/2022 12:57

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If you really think that, then perhaps you will listen when I ask:

  1. what is this obsession with flipping Trump.

I am afraid I am going to be sarcastic now, because there is no possible way to avoid being so. This is a British website! I couldn't have voted for him if I'd wanted to, because I live in the UK. I have never even set foot on American soil. It would make more sense to accuse random MNers of voting for a political hate-figure in France. It's closer.

Actually someone else earlier asked how I'd feel if people on here called FWR feminists Trump voters. While we're on the subject, the answer is that people do that all the time, and I either assume that they are:
A) fully aware that this is a British website and lying in order to elicit unthinking emotional reactions from lurkers, or;
B) people who are so out of touch with the conversation that we're having on here that they can't grasp that this is a British website.

In neither case do I care overly much, although I do sometimes think about posting a photograph of a world map with this is where I am entitled to vote, scribbled in angry green pen. Wink

  1. I also think the materials and content of The Family Sex Show can be used to normalise child sexual abuse. This is not a position confined to those you may see as privileged. Frankly, I am outraged that any public money may have gone towards it, and the impact of austerity on women and children makes funding this show worse, not better.
lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 13:08

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Brefugee · 21/04/2022 13:12

what is this obsession with flipping Trump.

to be fair, and you did quote it, it said "or Johnson" right after Trump. It is a kind of shorthand for "right wing politics" and it is a fair point. Right now the infighting among the left and the refusal of most politicians to have a proper grown up discussion about women's rights and women's fears has led to the absolutely preposterous (unthinkable a few years ago) situation that women who care very much about Gender Recognition Certificates, seemingly to the exclusion of all else, now feel that they can only vote for the party/ies that do bugger all for women, and in fact are actively stripping away rights.

And yes, it is important that we all feel safe when we're out and about but i wish people would really take a few moments to really think about what the Tories (and similar in other countrys) are doing in terms of social policies. School funding. NHS funding. Infrastructure. Jobs. Women's Pensions. (anyone's pensions, but let's look at things through our lens)

It's like when politicians and the press talk about Inheritance tax and everyone gets all up in arms about it, and don't realise the miniscule percentage of people who it will affect.

I don't live in the UK so I am one step removed from day-to-day UK life. But hand on heart, going about your daily life over the past month - what has happened to you that means a transwoman in a female prison, while serious, is THE most important thing in your political choices?

DomesticatedZombie · 21/04/2022 13:13

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I'm presuming you don't spend much time on the Feminist boards here.

Support for Trump/anti vaxxing/QAnon is all sounding rather like American issues that I cannot recall being discussed, let alone supported, on the feminist boards.

I am concerned about the push by some feminists to have no sex education in schools at all or only basic biology sex education.

Where has anybody suggested we should have 'no sex ed' in schools? Feminists/women/mothers have raised concerns about the age appropriateness and the safeguarding issues. To suggest this means we want 'no sex ed' is so overexaggerated and simplistic as to make posters question your motives, frankly.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/04/2022 13:21

@Brefugee

I don't live in the UK so I am one step removed from day-to-day UK life. But hand on heart, going about your daily life over the past month - what has happened to you that means a transwoman in a female prison, while serious, is THE most important thing in your political choices?

Thank you for asking that, most genuinely.

My mother went to prison.

Wish you hadn't asked now, don't you. Awkward I know.

AlisonDonut · 21/04/2022 13:24

Do we have to explicate our whole histories to prove our credentials to be concerned over one thing or another?

lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 13:25

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DomesticatedZombie · 21/04/2022 13:26

AlisonDonut · 21/04/2022 13:24

Do we have to explicate our whole histories to prove our credentials to be concerned over one thing or another?

No, we don't. It's interesting to see the assumptions people make.

Helleofabore · 21/04/2022 13:27

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/04/2022 13:21

@Brefugee

I don't live in the UK so I am one step removed from day-to-day UK life. But hand on heart, going about your daily life over the past month - what has happened to you that means a transwoman in a female prison, while serious, is THE most important thing in your political choices?

Thank you for asking that, most genuinely.

My mother went to prison.

Wish you hadn't asked now, don't you. Awkward I know.

And I have had a number of my family in prison too.

One of my female family members only got out last year.

So, yes Brefugee, thanks for asking.

DomesticatedZombie · 21/04/2022 13:28

Right. So where have you encountered these UK feminists supporting Trump/anti-vaxxing/QAnon?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/04/2022 13:28

AlisonDonut · 21/04/2022 13:24

Do we have to explicate our whole histories to prove our credentials to be concerned over one thing or another?

Well, if they want to demand we do that, more fool them.

I'm not an ashamed little girl any more, and quite prepared to answer.

lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 13:29

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Doubletoilandtrouble · 21/04/2022 13:29

Why would “anti-vax” be a feminist issue? I personally am very grateful for my Covid jabs and all my children are up to date with their immunisations. However, I have never seen this debated as a feminist issue.

sexEd - of course we should have SexEd. But age appropriate, not arguing for education about sex toys and anal sex in primary schools (I wish I was joking, but there was a poster seriously arguing for this).

Trump, right wing - seriously? This is a mix-up of the religious, right wing US people and the (usually) left wing U.K. feminists.

gender pay gap, of course it exists. 1) Women dominated jobs are paid less than male dominated jobs. 2) Men get promoted easier. 3) Women often go part time as there is insufficient access to childcare 4) In banking, law etc women are paid equally until they have children and then they often quit because the hours and the very structure of the work is unsuitable for family life. All these are feminist issues. However, I care most about 1-3. The high paid women under 4 can sort themselves out, they are less vulnerable.

lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 13:30

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lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 13:33

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Brefugee · 21/04/2022 13:34

@PurgatoryOfPotholes Wish you hadn't asked now, don't you. Awkward I know.

That's a pretty aggressive answer to a genuine question. Right. So i know your mum went to prison and i am now going to assume your mum is a natal woman. And i get that it is an issue to be in prison and know that there may be transgender (although i don't believe they are, they are playing the system) women in there who are male bodied and are inside having committed sex crimes against women.

In your shoes, or your mum's shoes? I would be seriously invested in a politician or political party that committed to stopping that. Seriously. It is a massive issue, and there are fair few reports of, surprise, transwomen re-transitioning back to male upon release.

I am not entirely convinced the Tories are that party, but assuming they are and assuming my mum wasn't going to be out in a couple of weeks, i can't say hand-on-heart it wouldn't be my priority either.

What i do think needs to be a priority is sensible and comprehensive discussion about when and how transmen and transwomen obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, and when and how transmen and transwomen can say "from now i am the other gender" and what the next steps should be.

I get that the current (? previous?) system of interviews, therapy, and a period of time living as that gender is onerous. And that if you are genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria that you want to get things moving. But that need/want needs to be balanced with what seems to be being proposed which is simply saying "nope, now I'm a wo/man" and everyone must accept it. The problem is. If you tweet about that, or otherwise write about it or hope to discuss that on the internet, out there in the world, the entrenched other positions shout you down. So you're labelled a TERF or a TRA and apparently there is no room for nuance. So while the immediate problem is sex-segregated spaces (very very immediate, IMO) the longer term issue is that we need a workable solution. But nobody is able to discuss it.

Helleofabore · 21/04/2022 13:35

"An area where single-sex space has never been guaranteed and rape and sexual assault of vulnerable women by male patients is not uncommon. But nobody shouts about that."

And... they do. It has been discussed on the FWR threads and many of us have been in contact with our MPs and there is one very involved Baroness that is very aware of the issue - any mixed sex ward.

"Transgender issue has gained grounds because of women concerned about their own children in changing rooms and toilets. That is the real battleground."

You could have left it at "Transgender issue has gained grounds because of women concerned about their own children". And yes, that is one of the very real life battlegrounds for more than a few posters on MN. Their children and how this impacts their child's daily life and their future.

DomesticatedZombie · 21/04/2022 13:39

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Why would I 'pretend' you're making anything up? Just because I've never encountered any of these views within feminism on Mumsnet, on social media, or in real life, doesn't mean nobody has ever professed them.

While I do think there may be (and always have been) divisions and issues within UK feminism, I don't actually think anti-vaxxing or Trump support are significant enough to matter.

I DO think that US cultural issues often get blurred into UK ones, people transpose things that are happening in the US onto the UK and presume our cultures/laws/situations are the same, when they are very much different. I would say that is more of a problem than conspiracies about - well, whatever QAnon is about.

lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 13:39

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DomesticatedZombie · 21/04/2022 13:40

What i do think needs to be a priority is sensible and comprehensive discussion about when and how transmen and transwomen obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate, and when and how transmen and transwomen can say "from now i am the other gender" and what the next steps should be.

Well, yes, this is what feminists have been fighting so bloody hard for for the past - what, ten years? And for their trouble, been doxxed, sacked, attacked, threatened and impugned. Now, when the issues finally start to see a bit of sunlight, everyone's all 'where were the feminists'.

lameasahorse · 21/04/2022 13:42

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/04/2022 13:42

That's a pretty aggressive answer to a genuine question. Right. So i know your mum went to prison and i am now going to assume your mum is a natal woman. And i get that it is an issue to be in prison and know that there may be transgender (although i don't believe they are, they are playing the system) women in there who are male bodied and are inside having committed sex crimes against women.

And i thought your question was condescending, patronising, and indicative of a mindset that could not comprehend that this was an issue that could affect anyone you ever actually talked to.

And I said before, none of us get to decide how others perceive us.

I don't think you've really engaged with the idea that whether my mother is out of prison or not, I will still care about the women still in there.

Every single one of them is someone's daughter, and I am a mother now. Most are sisters or mothers to someone else, and 84% are in there for a non-violent offence.

In fact, there are women in prison today who have committed no criminal offence, because it was designated as a safe place for women in danger of self-harm. Women are in prison right now for having had a mental health crisis.

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