Should Mumsnet have it's own middle class section ?

[hattie43]

Reading some of these threads turning nasty it's really apparent that people have such different lives there will never be common ground . Nor does there need to be but the insults are not nice.

A thread posted by someone asking a question , to some a reasonable question being jumped on by ' the poor ' as tone deaf means legitimate conversation has been drowned out .

Should Mumsnet be divided so
' middle classes 'can discuss things the poor don't relate to and likewise ' the poor ' can discuss their issues without ' tone deaf ' comments from people who aren't financially destitute ?

The other thing I don't get is why jump on a thread you don't like why not just scroll on by and join a discussion you do like . Being a hater is never going to resolve anything .

@Samcro

Just have a smug topic. Then people like the one you are talking about can post there.

Yanbu

I inwardly groan when I see people on the how can you live on £100k threads and the luxury frugalism ones

I agree but this isn't the type of thread I'm talking about. I'm talking about threads where people are discussing perfectly valid everyday experiences and getting shot down because some people cannot afford to do xyz.

@Lunar27

I inwardly groan when I see people on the how can you live on £100k threads and the luxury frugalism ones

I agree but this isn't the type of thread I'm talking about. I'm talking about threads where people are discussing perfectly valid everyday experiences and getting shot down because some people cannot afford to do xyz.

OK, so, personally, the last two years have brought some positives to my life. I may choose to share these on a thread about experiences during the pandemic and say that, for example, WFH has been helpful to me. However, that would be vastly different from starting a thread saying 'AIBU to think that covid has been a positive thing?' On the thread you're talking about, that's what the OP said about the CoL crisis, and its that that people reacted badly to, not that the OP is a well off person voicing an opinion. All this business about the poor MC who no one wants to listen to is smoke and mirrors to screen what most people would consider a huge error of tact and sensitivity.

And just for the avoidance of doubt, in my opinion, no, someone's positive experience of walking more and wasting less resources is not as valid in a discussion on the CoL crisis as someone else's experience of being hungry and cold. It serves only to dilute the perception of the impact on people who are suffering.

@SharpLily

Some people are indeed the architects of their own poverty. Some are able through luck or judgement, hard work, whatever to climb out of poverty.

Some people are born with financial advantages which again through luck or judgement they lose, others are able to enjoy that privilege and expand upon it.

None of it is black and white, ever. Hope that helps.

As many others posters have also experienced I am sure, I have been through periods of relative wealth and also times of wondering if I can stretch to a sliver of butter on the plain baked potato that's all I can afford to eat. There's really no need to judge or disparage either side of society on here certainly as very, very few of us know enough about other posters' circumstances to know how their lives have played out.

I do however get annoyed with those who desperately look for offence in the use of phrases such as 'the poor', 'the rich' or 'middle class'. None of that actually means anything in the end.

The majority of very wealthy Brits were born into wealth and many receive inheritances and are able to benefit from contacts made through family connections and at private schools etc.

The 'hard work and determination' fallacy helps no-one. There are very poor people who work extremely hard and who are still stuck in poverty; there are a lucky few who through some combination of resources, opportunities, luck and/or hard work are able to escape from poverty but that's not to say that they worked harder or are more determined that those who have been unable to escape from it!

Shouldn't be necessary. I hate it when someone posts, stupidly against those who very little or those that earn a lot. It's just unnecessary.
A thread from Someone who earns a lot and asks a reasonable question, should not be scorned.

707 although some mumsnetters have taken tips from other high earnings mumsnetters and then earned more money themselves so it is possible for some to come from poverty and earn a lot

@DesidaCrick

Good post *@ChazsBrilliantAttitude* It boils down to having self awareness and empathy for others.

Definitely agree with this. Probably even more need for that with the cost of living going up. People don't need to apologise for what they have but just consider how their post might come across.

@5128gap

Thanks. To be honest I didn't interpret the post that way at all. To me the OP stated quite clearly that those were positives relating to him/her specifically, not globally. As such I didn't find it distasteful. Some did but others didn't so guess it wasn't clear cut.

Another example. Recently I posted advice that EV's could be more accessible via salary sacrifice. Clearly this isn't applicable to everyone and only to those considering a new car, but could save a small fortune if applicable. I received a response that 'accessible' is privileged as some can't even afford a new car. Accessible has many meanings relative to the context in which it's used. I didn't mean accessible for people who can't afford a new car in the first place (obviously) but for those who can but where an EV might be a stretch.

I've read a number of other threads where people have been accused of being insensitive and seems like another silencing method.

In terms of dilution I'm not sure it does. Unless people don't watch the news, TV or surf the internet, I think most are acutely aware of the increasing suffering in this country. Some forum members discussing personal issues that happen to be MC specific isn't likely to alter anything, given the less well of account for the vast majority of the population.

Perhaps given demographics a sub forum isn't a bad idea after all.

And just for the avoidance of doubt, in my opinion, no, someone's positive experience of walking more and wasting less resources is not as valid in a discussion on the CoL crisis as someone else's experience of being hungry and cold. It serves only to dilute the perception of the impact on people who are suffering.
But that op wasn't trying to change the world, they were simply talking about something positive they got out of it. One of the comments was about the people in the pandemic who were positive about the experience, cursing about how they found it acceptable to post that they were gardening and shit. I was positive on sm over the pandemic. My neighbour died, I didn't see my mum or my brothers or sister throughout, my brother has aspergers and talks to himself and bashes his head off the walls but I didn't say that, I posted about us gardening and painting and playing football and sending stuff to my mum and bro. Was that not a valid thing to do to try to keep myself and others positive? Who decides whose stuff is valid? You can well believe people would approve if I did posts about my bro and my mum but I don't.

[quote Lunar27]@5128gap

Thanks. To be honest I didn't interpret the post that way at all. To me the OP stated quite clearly that those were positives relating to him/her specifically, not globally. As such I didn't find it distasteful. Some did but others didn't so guess it wasn't clear cut.

Another example. Recently I posted advice that EV's could be more accessible via salary sacrifice. Clearly this isn't applicable to everyone and only to those considering a new car, but could save a small fortune if applicable. I received a response that 'accessible' is privileged as some can't even afford a new car. Accessible has many meanings relative to the context in which it's used. I didn't mean accessible for people who can't afford a new car in the first place (obviously) but for those who can but where an EV might be a stretch.

I've read a number of other threads where people have been accused of being insensitive and seems like another silencing method.

In terms of dilution I'm not sure it does. Unless people don't watch the news, TV or surf the internet, I think most are acutely aware of the increasing suffering in this country. Some forum members discussing personal issues that happen to be MC specific isn't likely to alter anything, given the less well of account for the vast majority of the population.

Perhaps given demographics a sub forum isn't a bad idea after all.[/quote]
I think those reactions to your thread were different, and they were wrong. You were asking a question about specific circumstances and there was no need for people not affected by those circumstances to jump on to have a go at you. But those who did that did it because they enjoy a row, not because they're 'the poor' or WC, the vast majority of whom would probably not even have bothered opening a thread that didn't concern them. I don't think the actions of a few should be taken as representative of all and used as a reason to separate people on the grounds of income or social class.

I agree that some terms on MN become clichés to silence people; 'selfish' during covid, 'cool girl' and 'controlling' on the relationship board, but generally they are balanced by other people, so can be ignored.

In the thread we've been discussing a lot of genuinely strong feelings were aroused. The OP also posted in AIBU where it's always a risk you'll be challenged as that's the point of the board.

I'm not suggesting that that OP would have altered anything as a lone voice on MN, I was referring more to the attitude in general of putting a positive spin on awful things, which to me, seems to minimise the severity.

@stayathomer

And just for the avoidance of doubt, in my opinion, no, someone's positive experience of walking more and wasting less resources is not as valid in a discussion on the CoL crisis as someone else's experience of being hungry and cold. It serves only to dilute the perception of the impact on people who are suffering. But that op wasn't trying to change the world, they were simply talking about something positive they got out of it. One of the comments was about the people in the pandemic who were positive about the experience, cursing about how they found it acceptable to post that they were gardening and shit. I was positive on sm over the pandemic. My neighbour died, I didn't see my mum or my brothers or sister throughout, my brother has aspergers and talks to himself and bashes his head off the walls but I didn't say that, I posted about us gardening and painting and playing football and sending stuff to my mum and bro. Was that not a valid thing to do to try to keep myself and others positive? Who decides whose stuff is valid? You can well believe people would approve if I did posts about my bro and my mum but I don't.

It is a valid thing to try and keep other people positive, but if that was the OPs intention, then she made a mistake, as it didn't work. People worrying about not having enough to eat don't typically see the benefits to the environment as making it all worth while. If the OP came from a good place, but genuinely didn't realise that people had other priorities, then it's better she was told than repeat her mistake.

@Yourgirlfriendrachel

What’s poor though? Someone who only has £7 to last the week will be told they’ve got it good because someone else has £3 then someone in their overdraft will come on and complain about that only to be told by the next poster they’re privileged to have an overdraft. It’d be chaos.

Exactly, it's the Four Yorkshiremen syndrome so beloved of MNers.

Fish knives.

Sterling silver with bone handles, obvs, and never allow the staff to put them in the dishwasher!

@PurpleFlower1983

No it shouldn’t, but this is what government (Tory) cuts, price hikes and a cost of living increases always lead to: a divided society.

A ‘divided society’ that comes together at election time … to vote in the Tories. Again.

@5128gap

I think we're in agreement that it's bad taste to intentionally goad or rub noses so some self censoring/filtering is definitely necessary if one doesn't want to be on the end of a backlash! I'm still interested in the dynamics of discussion though.

In fairness to the OP I don't think there was any malice but guess the beauty of AIBU (if it can be described as beauty) is that responses are diverse and people will certainly speak up if they don't like something

YABU.

[quote Lunar27]@bringincrazyback

I appreciate that but why should people shield others who are less well off? It's like one rule for one and one for another.

And I'm not suggesting that people don't post, quite the opposite. People should be free to discuss issues relevant to them, without attracting ire from people who don't like the content. As long as it's not intentionally degrading or insulting.

Regarding posts about poverty, you've illustrated the point exactly (and the response I was after) but by the same token, why should support/advice be preserved for the less well off?[/quote]
Only just logged back on but @ChazsBrilliantAttitude has pretty much answered as I would have, particularly this:

It’s not about shielding anyone. It’s about recognising that your relative wealth shields you.

Everyone is of course entitled to their say on a forum and I'm not suggesting any particular group shouldn't post, but with the world/economy in the state they're in, I think it's impossible to get away from the fact that threads which feel particularly 'first-world-problem-y' may be looked on as being a bit crass by many right now. There isn't really a solution imo, beyond people exercising their own discretion as to which threads they read, and ideally being sensitive to what they're posting as well.

Er, yes, @707smile, that's the point. These sort of threads are full of people expounding the 'just work harder' or other theories but they're not really relevant because every situation is different.

"You don’t think it’s good for middle class people to be reminded that there is life outside their own quinoa-bubble? Where the cost of living crisis is welcomed as a welcome mindfulness exercise when some people have to choose between eating and heating?"

Way to fight class stereotypes with... yet more class stereotypes.

PurpleFlower1983

No it shouldn’t, but this is what government (Tory) cuts, price hikes and a cost of living increases always lead to: a divided society.

A ‘divided society’ that comes together at election time … to vote in the Tories. Again.

This.

At this point we deserve the govt we elect. Whatever happens now is collectively our own fault. I'll be interested how much worse it can get after the next general election when the conservative party have been voted in again.

Not sure if Brits are a bit thick or just like to suffer. And then constantly moan about it.

We are one of the greatest nations of earth and Labour has not won an election since 2005 because its policies are not very good.

@Xenia

We are one of the greatest nations of earth and Labour has not won an election since 2005 because its policies are not very good.

No we’re not one of the greatest nations on earth. Which of Labour’s specific policies aren’t very good? And for whom?

@Xenia

We are one of the greatest nations of earth and Labour has not won an election since 2005 because its policies are not very good.

Lol

If this is the type of country and leadership the electorate want, they are entitled to it, but I don't feel like sticking around. It doesn't create a good environment to do business in and I might as well go somewhere with better infrastructure where skills are valued properly.