Should Mumsnet have it's own middle class section ?

[hattie43]

Reading some of these threads turning nasty it's really apparent that people have such different lives there will never be common ground . Nor does there need to be but the insults are not nice.

A thread posted by someone asking a question , to some a reasonable question being jumped on by ' the poor ' as tone deaf means legitimate conversation has been drowned out .

Should Mumsnet be divided so
' middle classes 'can discuss things the poor don't relate to and likewise ' the poor ' can discuss their issues without ' tone deaf ' comments from people who aren't financially destitute ?

The other thing I don't get is why jump on a thread you don't like why not just scroll on by and join a discussion you do like . Being a hater is never going to resolve anything .

Some people are indeed the architects of their own poverty. Some are able through luck or judgement, hard work, whatever to climb out of poverty.

Some people are born with financial advantages which again through luck or judgement they lose, others are able to enjoy that privilege and expand upon it.

None of it is black and white, ever. Hope that helps.

As many others posters have also experienced I am sure, I have been through periods of relative wealth and also times of wondering if I can stretch to a sliver of butter on the plain baked potato that's all I can afford to eat. There's really no need to judge or disparage either side of society on here certainly as very, very few of us know enough about other posters' circumstances to know how their lives have played out.

I do however get annoyed with those who desperately look for offence in the use of phrases such as 'the poor', 'the rich' or 'middle class'. None of that actually means anything in the end.

I really need to know what the tone deaf thread was now

@houseargh

I really need to know what the tone deaf thread was now

It was someone rhapsodising about how the fuel crisis Joe taught her mindfulness and to wear socks and what a wonderful opportunity this was for us all.

Its very different in other European countries. People in France literally live in tumble down houses in some places, quite happily, in conditions that would horrify the average Brit. In The Netherlands, students live in shared houses that would have the parents of our precious students in the UK having apopoleptic fits and screaming about them living in poverty. In Germany, most young people rent for years and take their own kitchens with them. Many people don't own cars and have limited incomes that they just eke out but don't consider themselves "poor".

In the UK, if you don't have a brand new or nearly new house by 30 with a beautiful new kitchen and super-sofas and multi-screen etc, you're living in poverty according to some! The UK has a very consumer-driven, almost American style society in many ways.

@CJay81

I use mumsnet because netmums stopped being a thing but I notice on here so many people are middle class. It's almost like its funded by the tories.

I'd like a working class forum. Not a forum where people say you should be happy with beans on toast if that's all you can afford, yet the people saying that are thinking about using their hot tub less or not getting their nails done so much. People who don't understand why people are concerned about paying the bills. I know many local people who are well off but still understand but I don't see this so much on mumsnet.

Trouble with that is, you get different types of WC people. Some, like the OP, who may have a bit of money, and believe that has 'elevated' them to the MC, can have even less empathy for people without money, as they believe that because they improved their own financial circumstances, everyone can. They are also, again like the OP, often desperate to disassociate themselves from other WC people, and tend to 'other' them with disparaging comments. So while WC people like this exist, making threads exclusively WC would not stop people bashing the WC.

@SucculentChalice

Its very different in other European countries. People in France literally live in tumble down houses in some places, quite happily, in conditions that would horrify the average Brit. In The Netherlands, students live in shared houses that would have the parents of our precious students in the UK having apopoleptic fits and screaming about them living in poverty. In Germany, most young people rent for years and take their own kitchens with them. Many people don't own cars and have limited incomes that they just eke out but don't consider themselves "poor".

In the UK, if you don't have a brand new or nearly new house by 30 with a beautiful new kitchen and super-sofas and multi-screen etc, you're living in poverty according to some! The UK has a very consumer-driven, almost American style society in many ways.

I used to think this about people in the UK, but then I moved out of the South East and discovered that other places are more like the rest of Europe.

This isn't a problem for me, as my butler only reads out the threads he thinks I'll be interested in.

@FourTeaFallOut

This would be carnage. The whole board would explode trying to define what middle class is and isn't before you got to any other posts.

Fish knives.

Some threads that recognise that class is one of, if not the biggest issues, affecting the UK social mobility, would be nice.

Social mobility and class are horribly related and there's not a single major political party in the UK who doesn't recognise this.

Britain has the lowest social mobility in the developed world, Mr David Cameron said.

"Here, the salary you earn is more linked to what your father got paid than in any other major country," he said.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34460822

That was in 2015, I very much doubt it's got better.

@SucculentChalice I rented in berlin on a very low income, it was a lifetime rental contract and it was a new build apartment. It would cost £££ to rent in London. When. I moved back to London, I wanted a stable place to live so we bought a 1930s flat after saving for three years. Honestly everyone I know in the UK lives in an old house (suburban north London).it's true that the poor featured in the TV shows have nicer homes than many people I know who live in million pound homes, studied at Oxbridge and are otherwise 'middle-class', but I always put them down to priorities/different spending habits. For example I never wanted to spend money on a TV license in the past because I can watch stuff online and also I go out in the weekend so have less time to watch telly anyway... Different for someone who can't afford to eat out every weekend and go to the cinema and go on day trips, the TV is a much cheaper form of entertainment than what I do! So I guess entirely possible for someone to be in poverty and have a big TV/nice sofa as they probably spend a lot of time on it.

Well they have been called the poor all over this forum so it's not me it's an mn phrase.
It isn't.
Low income family is a better description, you're so uppity "Well they have been called the poor". 🙄

It was someone rhapsodising about how the fuel crisis Joe taught her mindfulness and to wear socks and what a wonderful opportunity this was for us all

It was someone reflecting on personal gains, both monetary and outlook she had made because of the fuel crisis, and her efforts to cut back on expenses.

It's refreshing to get a mix of responses surely? If you only want responses from people like you just ask your friends.

I once asked a question about childcare. Everyone always rags on people relying on grandparents as tho there's always a choice. One poster suggested I start a nanny share at school. No one at my dd very working class school has a nanny. I just laughed.

No it shouldn’t, but this is what government (Tory) cuts, price hikes and a cost of living increases always lead to: a divided society.

Hear hear PurpleFlower and threads like this are begun to exploit any divide further. Like the 'let's export refugees' policy dreamed up to appease Brexiters and gather some racist votes next month. It's absolutely sickening to see what this country's become; taking policies from Nazi Germany when their grandfather's fought and died too oppose them.

I always enjoy the ones who are desperate to tell everyone how wc their roots are and how they know how hard life can be, sat round a candle to keep warm in a hair shirt and are bone soup, but are now earning 300k a year theough sheer hard work and determination, and can now afford to do the weekly shop at Fortnum and Mason, live in a 5 bed detached in Wimbledon with kids at private school etc, but they're still really down with the proles and can feel the burning injustice of it all man ✌️

Those are the ones that need a swift punch up the bracket imo.

I'm one that didn't find the thread in question offensive as I didn't interpret the post in the way others seemed to.

However, what I find interesting is why people with more money should not openly talk about issues or experiences they have? And why is it acceptable for those with less to freely discuss that they are suffering? It makes no sense.

I accept if people are being cruel and rubbing people's noses in it, fine. But to reverse the situation, what are we supposed to do with information that someone is struggling so much they can't afford to eat? On a public forum, what is it supposed to achieve, other than to make us feel the deepest sympathy/guilt/despair. Why do the feelings of poorer people matter more that those who are more comfortable?

@Lunar27

I'm one that didn't find the thread in question offensive as I didn't interpret the post in the way others seemed to.

However, what I find interesting is why people with more money should not openly talk about issues or experiences they have? And why is it acceptable for those with less to freely discuss that they are suffering? It makes no sense.

I accept if people are being cruel and rubbing people's noses in it, fine. But to reverse the situation, what are we supposed to do with information that someone is struggling so much they can't afford to eat? On a public forum, what is it supposed to achieve, other than to make us feel the deepest sympathy/guilt/despair. Why do the feelings of poorer people matter more that those who are more comfortable?

They don't matter more, they matter equally. But the recent cost of living rises are causing real desperation. In times like these I don't think it's unreasonable if posts about whether someone should sell off the lower field or let Jocasta's ponies graze it attract a few comments along the lines of the OP needing to check their privilege.

And your comment about why would people post about poverty is just awful. Would you rather people who are struggling didn't ask anyone for support or advice in case they made others feel uncomfortable?

@Lunar27

I'm one that didn't find the thread in question offensive as I didn't interpret the post in the way others seemed to.

However, what I find interesting is why people with more money should not openly talk about issues or experiences they have? And why is it acceptable for those with less to freely discuss that they are suffering? It makes no sense.

I accept if people are being cruel and rubbing people's noses in it, fine. But to reverse the situation, what are we supposed to do with information that someone is struggling so much they can't afford to eat? On a public forum, what is it supposed to achieve, other than to make us feel the deepest sympathy/guilt/despair. Why do the feelings of poorer people matter more that those who are more comfortable?

That’s exactly it.

That thread would have been fine if it hadn’t been completely ignoring the stress that the fuel prices are causing some people. Or even if OP had had an actual concern of her own, it might have been forgivable.

There was no concern or dilemma though. It was all “isn’t this cost of living crisis a marvellous opportunity for inner growth and mindfulness? we’ve been wearing socks, and turning the thermostat down one notch - all very soul nourishing and educational!”

Absolutely no content to it. A nothing burger. No input needed. While on the other side of the scales, so much scope to make people feel like shit.

If I can work that out, most people can work that out.

@bringincrazyback

I appreciate that but why should people shield others who are less well off? It's like one rule for one and one for another.

And I'm not suggesting that people don't post, quite the opposite. People should be free to discuss issues relevant to them, without attracting ire from people who don't like the content. As long as it's not intentionally degrading or insulting.

Regarding posts about poverty, you've illustrated the point exactly (and the response I was after) but by the same token, why should support/advice be preserved for the less well off?

I appreciate that but why should people shield others who are less well off? It's like one rule for one and one for another.

It’s not about shielding anyone. It’s about recognising that your relative wealth shields you.
I inwardly groan when I see people on the how can you live on £100k threads and the luxury frugalism ones. I am comfortable financially and would be perceived as MC. My life is easier than someone who is in a more precarious financial position.

Yes I can drone on about how hard I worked but so did DH when he was a newly arrived immigrant working in hospitality or driving a bus. I know which of us had more opportunities and better working conditions.
I don’t use a tumble dryer for environmental reasons but I can make that choice because I have a house and garden. Ditto growing fruit and veg. I buy some second hand uniform to reduce waste - the DC’s private school has a thriving second hand shop on site. This is luxury frugalism because there is no negative judgements made about second hand clothes when the purchaser can afford new.
It’s worth taking a step back and recognising that people are really struggling and frightened by costs rising right now. Posting threads extolling the virtues of luxury frugalism are always going to look crass.

Good post @ChazsBrilliantAttitude
It boils down to having self awareness and empathy for others.