To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

I don't find abortion 'sad'. I've had one and don't ever feel sad about it or even really think about it, and I'm certainly not emotionally invested in other people's abortions. Of course it's an emotional experience for some people who have one, but certainly not everyone, and I wouldn't presume to feel sad for someone else over something that has no impact on my life and whose feelings I don't know.

What does make me sad are the many unwanted and uncared for children in this country, women tied to abusive men for the rest of their lives, women whose mental and physical health is irrevocably ruined. I think we should be more if not blasé then at least open about abortion because an unwanted pregnancy can ruin someone's life.

So many children brought into shitty home lives, poverty, so many women whose lives are a fucking slog day in and day out and who are utterly miserable. And it's always women who pick up the pieces of unwanted pregnancies. The man can fuck off and pay the bare minimum and be done with it.

Let's be more honest about the effect having a baby can have on your life. It can be utterly wonderful or utterly ruinous, and if you're in a situation where it will make it the latter, then I am glad you have safe and available options.

So you want women who have abortions to think and feel certain things

And MN posters not to suggest abortion to other posters.

YABU on both.

What does make me sad are the many unwanted and uncared for children in this country, women tied to abusive men for the rest of their lives, women whose mental and physical health is irrevocably ruined. I think we should be more if not blasé then at least open about abortion because an unwanted pregnancy can ruin someone's life.

Absolutely this. And if many women weren't guilted into keeping unwanted pregnancies by people using emotive language - 'babies' when in fact they are no more than foetal tissue at that point - there would be far fewer of these children growing up in often horrible circumstances.

@AskingforaBaskin

To me it would be the same as having a mole removed. A mass of unwanted cells that could or would cause harm if not dealt with.

Some people have more than a mass of cells removed though. They have fully formed babies removed. I am not against abortion but I draw the line one they take on the human form

Stop saying you are pro-choice when you are clearly not.

What you don't understand is that people may come across as 'cold' because they truly don't see it as a 'baby'. Now, you obviously see it as a baby so are more emotive. To us, it's no more than a tumour or a growth or something you want out of you. We are 'cold' because we don't see it as a baby, just something that needs removing. What you seem to be suggesting is that women should feel guilty. That is what it feels like you are suggesting. That if we don't feel guilty, if we are cold, if we don't treat it as a baby, there is something wrong with us. No woman should be made to feel guilty.

Also, in many of those cases you describe, aborting would be the wise choice, so why wouldn't we advocate it? Going through with a pregnancy as a teenager is not wise and definitely should be discouraged. No parent should be ok with their child ruining their life. Same as other not ideal circumstances. There's not always a perfect time to have a child, however having it when you are in poverty, partner/husband had an affair and abandoned you, etc isn't very wise, and in those cases abortion would be the best choice. So of course wise Mumsnetters will advocate it.

Abortion is healthcare and it's pretty simple, if you don't like it, you don't get one. What someone else does with a clump of cells in their uterus in their business.
People ask for advice on forums, some will say to keep the baby, some will not. I would remind a woman that abortion is an option and if she wants one, there's nothing to be ashamed of. Why shouldn't people advise that termination is possible?
I had a termination at 18, it's the best choice I made and I have never regretted it or felt guilty once.

So at how many weeks would you ban abortion, missMaple?

Luckily you, alone, don’t get to ‘draw the line’ on the law.

Some people have more than a mass of cells removed though. They have fully formed babies removed. I am not against abortion but I draw the line one they take on the human form

In medically necessary cases, yes. You can't just choose to get a late term abortion because you feel like it. They are done as the fetus is not compatible with life. It's not your business if someone has to medically abort their baby, just be thankful you've never been in that position.

I agree with TalkingCat .
The vast majority of abortions are carried out at less than 9 weeks- at that stage cell differentiation has not completed.
OP If you are so keen to elevate the rights of the unborn above those of the mother what about contraceptive methods that function by the expulsion of an embryo- the coil or the pill? I take it you don't use these methods?

I have no issue with other people having terminations. The decision is theirs to make. None of my business

But you think it’s ‘cold’ to suggest it, and appear to think it’s only acceptable if accompanied by lots of hand wringing and lots of mourning.

Not ‘pro-choice’ in my book.

So is forced pregnancy and forced birth a better option?

@pangolina

I think it depends on how you view the embryo. For example, two of my friends both lost a pregnancy at 8 weeks. One of them viewed it as her baby, a miscarriage, a lost child. She was heartbroken.The other viewed it as a late period. Genuinely. For some people, an early abortion just isn't a huge traumatic thing. For some it is the logical solution to a problem. What I find distasteful is the undercurrent I often pick up, of people claiming to be pro-choice but only really if the woman is suitably distraught and wracked with guilt about it.

people claiming to be pro-choice but only really if the woman is suitably distraught and wracked with guilt about it.

Yes. The woman must be punished, she must feel bad. And if she doesn't feel bad, she is 'cold' or there is something wrong with her. People like the OP are quite cruel and distasteful as you said, to want a woman to feel bad, to feel shame, to feel guilt. It's so misogynist and sexist. Why the hell in 2022 are we trying to force women to feel guilt and shame for removing something on their body that they do not want? The interalised misogyny of the OP and the sadism is palpable. It's like a woman must suffer to justify the right to have body autonomy.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one

It isn’t a baby, it has the potential to become a baby. One in four (at least) will miscarry naturally. Just as not all the seeds in my propagator will be plants, not all fertilised eggs will become people.

Remember those comedy sketches in the 90s about celebrities fawning over “Good AIDS” sufferers (blood transfusion) and freaking out about “Bad AIDS” sufferers (had lots of sex)? The OP is like that. Accepts abortion if accompanied by hand-wringing and distress.

An abortion doesn’t have to be sad or emotionally laden or guilt-inducing. It’s about being realistic, accepting this isn’t a time or situation in which to have child and taking steps to stop that happening.

Being pregnant is hard. Raising a child is very very hard. If a woman is uncertain it’s right for her, whatever her situation, I want her to be able to say no.

There was one woman on here that wanted a fairly late termination in my opinion and let it keep growing because she couldn't make up her mind, she had it done eventuallyi think - either have it done when it is a mass of cells or don't. To let it keep growing is totally unfair. Google the silent scream

I had a termination when I was a lot younger and I was incredibly sad about it. I would say it took me a good 10 years before I could finally put it behind me and stop thinking about the baby I could have had. The circumstances around the pregnancy were very upsetting and the choice to continue the pregnancy or terminate wasn’t one I was allowed to make for myself and undoubtedly this had a huge impact on how I emotionally coped with it all.

If I got pregnant now it would not be an option at all to continue with it so I would abort with a clear mind and in the knowledge I was doing the right thing and I really don’t think I would be plagued with thoughts around it.

I imagine the scenarios of a woman’s conception/pregnancy will have a role in how she feels about terminating the pregnancy.

So if it's just a mass of cells/ a foetus/ a tumour (seriously?!) what do you say to someone who announces a pregnancy before 12 weeks? No, you're not having a baby, it's just a blob of cells?

I don't read that type of thread on here because I find them chilling. I'm pro life.

And sometimes abortion IS a guilt ridden sad thing too. I had an early abortion in 2012 and it was utterly horrific. Protestors outside praying for me and my baby brandishing posters or aborted babies, I was in tears, my mum was in tears. And I DID feel guilty and DID regret it for many years and I still think about it often.

@MissMaple82

There was one woman on here that wanted a fairly late termination in my opinion and let it keep growing because she couldn't make up her mind, she had it done eventuallyi think - either have it done when it is a mass of cells or don't. To let it keep growing is totally unfair. Google the silent scream

Is it meant to make me feel bad because I don't? I've seen the anti abortion film you talk of, still pro choice to as late as necessary. Late abortions can't be performed just because someone felt like it, if you believe that, you know nothing of abortion.

I'm as pro-choice as you like but I do find it baffling that so many people are denying that there are threads where posters are recommending abortion.
I feel that it's a perception thing. "You should get an abortion" to some people may be a gentle suggestion and to others an explicit instruction!

@Manekinek0

I don't see an aborted fetus as a baby.

Bringing a child into the world that you don't really want or can't provide for is awful.

This.

I wonder if it's because many people here really get that having a baby has such a huge impact on a woman's life and that it's a myth that no one ever regrets having a baby. If you don't believe abortion is wrong then it can seem ridiculous to put yourself through a pregnancy that's more likely than not going to be very detrimental in your circumstances.

I've been on MN a lot longer than you & totally disagree with your opinion about MNers being cold and pushing abortions.

Stop calling them babies, they are not babies.

Are we really bringing up The Silent Scream as some sort of evidence? A piece of dogshit anti-abortion propaganda from the 80s?

'Many members of the medical community were critical of the film, describing it as misleading and deceptive. Richard Berkowitz, professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Mount Sinai Medical Center, described the film as "factually misleading and unfair."[4] John Hobbins of the Yale School of Medicine called the film's use of special effects deceptive, a form of "technical flimflam." He pointed out that the film of the ultrasound is initially run at slow speed, but that it is sped up when surgical instruments are introduced to give the impression that "the fetus is thrashing about in alarm." Hobbins questioned the titular "scream", noting that "the fetus spends lots of time with its mouth open," that the "scream" may have been a yawn, and also that "mouth" identified on the blurry ultrasound in the film may in fact have been the space between the fetal chin and chest.[4] Edward Myer, chairman of pediatrics at the University of Virginia stated that, at twelve weeks, the brain is not sufficiently developed for a fetus to be able to feel pain.[8] Similarly, Hart Peterson, chairman of pediatric neurology at the New York Hospital, stated that the "notion that a 12-week-old fetus is in discomfort is erroneous."[8]
Fetal development experts argued that, contrary to Nathanson's assertion in the film, a fetus cannot perceive danger or make purposeful movements. David Bodian, a neurobiologist at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, stated that doctors had no evidence that a twelve-week-old fetus could feel pain, but noted the possibility of a reflex movement by a fetus in response to external stimuli such as surgical instruments. The size of the ultrasound image and of the fetus model used was also misleading, appearing to show a fetus the size of a full-term baby, while in actuality a twelve-week-old fetus is under two inches long.[4] Jennifer Niebyl of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine said that what Nathanson described as the fetus recoiling from pain and seeking to escape is "strictly reflex activity" which Nathason made look purposeful by speeding up the film as the suction catheter was placed.[13] Fay Redwine of the VCU Medical Center stated: "Any of us could show you the same image in a fetus who is not being aborted."[13]'