To be shocked by how blasé alot of MNers are about abortion

[Nothanksloveimfine]

Yes its healthcare, yes free and safe abortion is completely necessary because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about, yes everybody has a right to choose what's best for them and yes I am pro choice (whilst being explicitly pro life with regards to my own pregnancies)

With all that said and done, I am quite alarmed at how a sizable % of MNers are so blase about abortions. Whenever a poster is talking about being pregnant with an unplanned baby and in a less than perfect situation, I see alot of posters urging her to just have a termination like its a routine stroll through the park.

I've just read a heartbreaking article which is being discussed at the minute and some of the replies on that thread are so cold. It made me cry and I'm wondering how the hell people can read that and not be impacted by it, completely steamrolling over the tragic loss of life by saying things like "that's a rare case" abortion is a good thing bla bla bla.

Does anybody else share my view or am I the odd one out?

It's like people are so determined to bang the "right to abort" drum, they have no regard for the babies whatsoever.

Abortion can be totally necessary but it's also pretty sad IMO.

You can care about the mother without being so cold and dismissive of the baby they were carrying.

Caring about the babies doesn't mean I hate women, I am one.

Yes I've name changed because I don't expect this will go down well here.

What emotion do you want women to feel after an abortion?

I would hope they would be at peace with their decision.

For christ sake how many times do I need to repeat myself. I'm not casting judgment on any individual for choosing a termination. My gripe is with how it's often trotted out on MN as a first port of call when somebody is pregnant in less than ideal circumstances. I find that cold, uncaring and quite callous because the people commenting don't give a shit about the poster really do they? They won't be going to the clinic with them or supporting them afterwards. Flinging out such 'advice' under the guise of it being the right thing to do, or what you would do, is dangerous when it's such a serious issue.

Equally disgusting to me is when somebody makes clear they do not want a termination and is told they are mad / selfish / stupid for bringing a baby into the world in their circumstances.

I don't go around telling people they should have abortions, I don't go around telling people that they shouldn't either.

You know that saying people like to band about "not your body, not your business" perhaps share that pearl of wisdom with the arseholes trying to cagoule somebody into a termination because it fucking happens.

In my view it is colder to place a bunch of cells that cannot have a sentient thought ahead of a woman in distress at her pregnancy. I haven't seen the other thread so can't comment on that but I expect that people are centering the woman.

The term "bunch of cells" doesn't in any way distinguish the unborn baby from any other person. An adult can equally be defined as a bunch of cells.

In some cases I guess you're right - there's plenty of evidence on this thread alone of "bunches of cells not able to have a sentient thought" (you left out that second part, I'm sure it was an accident.)

Abortion is not a political issue in this country. Thank goodness.

Please don't try to make us like the USA.

I think women have made tough decisions from the beginning. I too think life starts at conception and that abortion is taking a life. I don’t need to call that life a foetus to justify ending it, nor do I need to insist on calling it a baby to someone who finds that upsetting.

People are deliberately ignoring you OP despite you clearly stating your feelings many times. They just want to promote their own agenda. 🙄 The thread will be finishing soon, thank fuck.

‘They know not what they do…’

I’m not sure why people are committed to believing this. Is it ego? The thought that, actually, everyone must secretly hold your opinion because it’s that important? That they’re only kidding themselves if they say they don’t?

Is it a comfort thing? Does it make you feel better to believe it? Does it sufficiently shield you from a reality you don’t like? Ironically enough it’s this that counts as delusional thinking.

Or is it just a way of dismissing peoples experiences? That, at some unspecified time in a future it’s impossible to predict, of course you’ll be proven right? It’s convenient because it means you don’t have to actually hear and acknowledge what people are telling you about their own lived experiences, or back up your own opinions with any evidence to support them, when you can just make vague references to being correct later on down the line.

@VanGoghsDog

In my view it is colder to place a bunch of cells that cannot have a sentient thought ahead of a woman in distress at her pregnancy. I haven't seen the other thread so can't comment on that but I expect that people are centering the woman.

The term "bunch of cells" doesn't in any way distinguish the unborn baby from any other person. An adult can equally be defined as a bunch of cells.

In some cases I guess you're right - there's plenty of evidence on this thread alone of "bunches of cells not able to have a sentient thought" (you left out that second part, I'm sure it was an accident.)

I mean, babies don't display sentient thought in the sense of consciousness and memory until they're 5 months old. So that argument doesn't hold water either.

I’ve become more and more pro choice the older I have got and definitely since I had children. I think it’s because I now actually understand how difficult and exhausting childbearing is so there’s no way I think anyone should be forced into it, ever.

With regards to people on MN suggesting a termination, it’s usually because the man is feckless or maybe even abusive and they know the poster will be trapped with him for life if she has the child. You can’t block them and move on if you have children, you have to communicate with them for at least 16 years but even after that you’ll have to see them at things like graduation, wedding and so forth. You’re never fully rid of them so I think posters who suggest termination have the OP’s best interests at heart really.

For christ sake how many times do I need to repeat myself. I'm not casting judgment on any individual for choosing a termination. My gripe is with how it's often trotted out on MN as a first port of call when somebody is pregnant in less than ideal circumstances. I find that cold, uncaring and quite callous because the people commenting don't give a shit about the poster really do they? They won't be going to the clinic with them or supporting them afterwards. Flinging out such 'advice' under the guise of it being the right thing to do, or what you would do, is dangerous when it's such a serious issue.

But surely by your logic any advise given from one poster to another is equally problematic? When a mumsetter advises an OP to leave their partner for example they won’t actually be going to the refuse with them or supporting them afterwards. If somebody advises to keep the baby they won’t be going to the maternity ward, breastfeeding or getting up in the night to change nappies afterwards. If somebody advises to report a sexual assault they won’t actually be going to the police station and going through what happened detail by detail afterwards. Every potentially difficult or upsetting thing anybody advises somebody to do on mumsnet is obviously done from a distance and by somebody who isn’t going to be there for the actual process but I still don’t understand why it is worse to suggest a woman have a termination than it is to suggest she keep it or, in different circumstances, to do another hard thing such as LTB, report an assault, find a new job etc?

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter whether a fetus is a human being or not.

That entire argument is a red herring, a distraction, a subjective and unwinnable argument that could not matter less.

It doesn't matter whether we're talking about a fertilized egg or a fetus, or a baby, or a five year old, of a Nobel Prize winning pediatric oncologist.

NOBODY has the right to use your body, against your will, even to save their life, or the life of another person.

That's it.

That's the argument.

You cannot be forced to donate blood, or marrow, or organs, even though thousands die every year on waiting lists.

They cannot harvest your organs after your death without your explicit, written, pre-mortem permission.

Denying women the right to an abortion means we have less bodily autonomy than a corpse.

Author unknown.

Your rights to life end when it encroaches on my bodily rights.

@ButTheyAintSeenUsTogether

People are deliberately ignoring you OP despite you clearly stating your feelings many times. They just want to promote their own agenda. 🙄 The thread will be finishing soon, thank fuck.

This 100%!

her body her choice totally

@Nothanksloveimfine

What emotion do you want women to feel after an abortion?

I would hope they would be at peace with their decision.

For christ sake how many times do I need to repeat myself. I'm not casting judgment on any individual for choosing a termination. My gripe is with how it's often trotted out on MN as a first port of call when somebody is pregnant in less than ideal circumstances. I find that cold, uncaring and quite callous because the people commenting don't give a shit about the poster really do they? They won't be going to the clinic with them or supporting them afterwards. Flinging out such 'advice' under the guise of it being the right thing to do, or what you would do, is dangerous when it's such a serious issue.

Equally disgusting to me is when somebody makes clear they do not want a termination and is told they are mad / selfish / stupid for bringing a baby into the world in their circumstances.

I don't go around telling people they should have abortions, I don't go around telling people that they shouldn't either.

You know that saying people like to band about "not your body, not your business" perhaps share that pearl of wisdom with the arseholes trying to cagoule somebody into a termination because it fucking happens.

But seriously @Nothanksloveimfine, do you really think that's a likely scenario?

Someone is unsure about termination. They post a thread about it. Some anonymous posters suggest it as a solution. They then are suddenly persuaded to have an abortion which otherwise would not have happened.

These threads attract the typical US style anti-abortion posters, some people who aren't as emotive about it as you would like. But typically the majority of posters are people sharing advice and their own stories.

I think it harps back to woman not being able to make big decisions & the paternalistic type of healthcare to suggest they can be persuaded into somethign they don't want to do by MN.

@rainbowdaz I was replying to the fact that the poster said no one has the right to end that life(which is a life because it has a heartbeat by her definition).

I haven't denied anything or expressed my opinion on where life begins or what is or isn't a life.

@ButTheyAintSeenUsTogether how vast is your experience?
How many women do you know that have had abortions? How many considered it a baby, how many a bunch if cells? How many regretted it, how many didn't? And how exactly does that "coldness" extrapolate to other areas of their life?

I'm 100% Pro-choice.

In some circumstances its really not the right thing for the mother or child or sometimes existing for children too for another baby to be brought into this world.

Adoption isn't always the right answer for either of them. I certainly don't want to see a return to the days of mothers being hidden away to have a baby then return to their home town like nothing had happened.
That probably leaves worse scars on a womans mind than abortion does.

@whumpthereitis

No woman or man has the right to kill that life. So the judging goes both ways. You judge me and I judge you. And that’s is as it should be in a country with free speech.

*shouldn’t have the right to kill that life, you mean, because we absolutely do have the right to have an abortion,

I don’t care if anyone judges me, they’re more than welcome to if that’s what they want to do. Knock yourself out and all that, it means nothing to me 🤷🏻‍♀️ What I have a problem with is someone thinking their opinions over my body should be more important than mine.

But that’s your view!! In my view, no, once you have a beating heart inside you, that life also has rights so you do not have the automatic right to kill the life inside you. The fact that it’s growing inside you (and altering your life, health) does not change the fact that it’s also a life with rights. That’s MY view.

@TalkingCat

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter whether a fetus is a human being or not.

That entire argument is a red herring, a distraction, a subjective and unwinnable argument that could not matter less.

It doesn't matter whether we're talking about a fertilized egg or a fetus, or a baby, or a five year old, of a Nobel Prize winning pediatric oncologist.

NOBODY has the right to use your body, against your will, even to save their life, or the life of another person.

That's it.

That's the argument.

You cannot be forced to donate blood, or marrow, or organs, even though thousands die every year on waiting lists.

They cannot harvest your organs after your death without your explicit, written, pre-mortem permission.

Denying women the right to an abortion means we have less bodily autonomy than a corpse.

Author unknown.

Your rights to life end when it encroaches on my bodily rights.

Interesting that this totally contradicts the rationale behind lockdown and Covid restrictions. We accepted our wellbeing, our education, our finances, our physical movements, our relationships, our bodily autonomy (etc) being heavily impeded and regulated in order to protect the vulnerable.

Also, everything you have listed there could just as legitimately be used to argue for the rights of the unborn child. The only difference is that they have no one to speak for them.

The only time I've been put off is when posters pile on to tell an OP she should effectively force her teen DD to have an abortion by cutting off financial support , telling her to move out. I found the attitudes very 1950s like. If you force your DD to abort it's highly likely she won't forgive you.

Abortion is very much a minor procedure in week 10, less so in week 23 or even in a few places around the world* week 36.

The argument about some seeing abortion as minor and others as major is lacking this distinction in my opinion as it often depends on whether the abortion is carried out early, mid or late term. I’m willing to bet majority of those calling their abortions minor had them done chemically (abortion pills) and before 12weeks/early term...which is when the vast majority, over 90%, of abortions are done.

I think there would be more common ground if women realised that their majority view of abortion as minor is driven by the fact that the majority of abortions are done early, before 12 weeks. And so the minority view that not all abortions are minor is perfectly acceptable because less than 10% of abortions do necessarily fall into the mid to late term abortion time span where the foetus is more human like and has greater potential as a future human life while simultaneously the length of the pregnancy remaining to the woman grows ever shorter and the risks of abortion to her health grow higher.

When you have or need an abortion completely affects the dynamic, we can’t paint all abortions the same.

*As I’ve posted before, it is legal in some countries (Canada, China, and N Korea ) and 8 US states to have an abortion on demand up to birth.

@Nothanksloveimfine

What emotion do you want women to feel after an abortion?

I would hope they would be at peace with their decision.

For christ sake how many times do I need to repeat myself. I'm not casting judgment on any individual for choosing a termination. My gripe is with how it's often trotted out on MN as a first port of call when somebody is pregnant in less than ideal circumstances. I find that cold, uncaring and quite callous because the people commenting don't give a shit about the poster really do they? They won't be going to the clinic with them or supporting them afterwards. Flinging out such 'advice' under the guise of it being the right thing to do, or what you would do, is dangerous when it's such a serious issue.

Equally disgusting to me is when somebody makes clear they do not want a termination and is told they are mad / selfish / stupid for bringing a baby into the world in their circumstances.

I don't go around telling people they should have abortions, I don't go around telling people that they shouldn't either.

You know that saying people like to band about "not your body, not your business" perhaps share that pearl of wisdom with the arseholes trying to cagoule somebody into a termination because it fucking happens.

But sometimes it is selfish to bring a child into the world in some circumstances.

And people should have the right to say so.

Too many people just have kid after kid in such a blaze' manner and don't to think through the consequences of bringing a kid into the world. Sadly it does go back to the class thing. WC often have kid after kid after kid, sometimes to different fathers and not married. And wonder why they can't make ends meet. MC people have 2 kids, a dog and a picket fence and are careful to only have as few kids as they can afford. Hence why they're probably MC because they are more careful with money and consider lifestyle before having children all the time.

@ButTheyAintSeenUsTogether

I think others have already said this, but plenty of women do just view it as a minor procedure that is similar in response to having any other minor medical procedure. That's a valid point of view, and it doesn't make them cold, or conversely emotive, for expressing it that way.

I think it’s quite obvious that women that are not as affected by it are colder. They’re more detached and less caring in my experience.

Ah well. Given my worldview has so far managed to provide me with a life I enjoy and am very happy with, I’m quite content to carry on with my frozen ways 🧊

Oh well, OP, never mind eh?

@Hopspinach Also, everything you have listed there could just as legitimately be used to argue for the rights of the unborn child. The only difference is that they have no one to speak for them.

Wrong! A fetus relies on another person to survive. Another person does not rely on a fetus to survive.

I don’t agree with abortion but mostly keep away from the topic now as the pro choice crowd shout louder and can get quite rabid. It’s like a few other topics where it’s unfashionable to admit your opinion or choice - reading the daily mail, being conservative - not worth the aggro you get for admitting it, so anyone who does/is keeps quiet.